Many / most of the changes in the Draft list are the result of the 1.8 Eldar proposals by the previous Champion, including the creation of the 'Swords of Vaul'.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

I thought the Swords of Vaul had been nixed, for the Biel Tan list at least.

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It's always been my intent that all the core Craftworlds would have access to the Swords of Vaul formation combining Falcons, Fire Storms, and Fire Prisms; this was seen as "too extreme" for the 2008 Errata (as were many things we're including in various NetEA lists), but is fine for the NetEA armies.

With the reduction in stats for the Fire Prisms, the original 250 point Fire Prism Troupe would have to be repointed around 175-200 points.


That was addressed as a typo in the first page of the thread, I believe; it should be SR5.

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Sorry Hena, but as a NetERC member, it's your *responsibility* to read every list.

The "Swords of Vaul" thing has been discussed in the past and all Biel-Tan games I've posted have used it as an option, so it's seen a lot of play and has been a fine and balanced change. The reduction in Fire Prism stats presume the existence of a "Swords of Vaul" Troupe; three reduced-stat Fire Prisms as a formation are *NOT* worth 250 points.

Additionally, all the other major Craftworlds have the Swords of Vaul Troupe and they have not been shown to be a problem.

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Chroma, I agree that the increased numbers 5-6 falcons in the formation makes sense; it adds that little bit more resilience that makes the formation more viable in both the AT and AA roles.

However, I have not seen 'extensive' playtesting with the Fire Prism upgrade, and quite frankly do not think it holds water. IIRC part of the original thinking behind this proposal was to try to make the Fire Prism 'viable' because it evidently was not working as a three unit formation, and was over-costed for a niche formation that was so easy to break.

I would much prefer to leave the Fire Prism stats entirely alone and play with Fire Prism formation costings and upgrades:- perhaps starting with 175 points for three with 1-2 extra at 75 points each. If this proves 'overpowered' then perhaps we consider reducing the range to 60 cm etc at that point.

As for the AA component, if that is considered overpowered (which I believe is the issue underlying the drop in range), then change the unit stats to add an AA missile or some such with a more appropriate range. Separating the two components in this way makes it far easier to balance the stats of the unit in isolation rather than as part of some upgrade to the Falcons.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Backgroundwise and W40k-wise a Fire Prism has no AA capabilities of any kind; it's an oddity that was made up when the epic list was written that has since been corrected.

Most other races have only a single core AA unit - Hunter, Flakwagon, Hydra, etc and it is fine for the Eldar to follow suit, they already have excellent AA capabilities with Fire Storms and Nightwings.

I'll make sure to test out a mixed formation of this kind when I try out the list, but I'm sure this unit has seen extensive testing historically over time.

I used the Swords of Vaul too and never had Problems with it... i rarely take Fireprisms in it as i don´t like to have mixed Units with diffrent Ranges. (60cm vs. 45cm)

The old FP Formation was realy overpriced, i allways toke the Falcons when i playd it like that.

Now i use some FirePrisms again in 5 strong all FP Formations and i think it´s just fine, none of my opponents has been crying about it

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Ok, I accept the point about the background to the lack of AA on the Fire Prism - I am not a "Fluffy file" and am ignorant on these points. However the "core" Eldar AA is not as excellent as you make out, being easily suppressed by long-range fire. Part of this is due to the 5x unit formation where the destruction of a single unit (due to weak armour) effectively causes the suppression of all AA. Consequently to have effective ground AA, the Eldar need to pay for several such formations which in turn dictates their general strategy due to the formation costs etc.

I also acknowledge the Night wings as 'superb' AA, but then TBolts, Fighta-bombaz, Helltallons, Baracudas etc all fulfill a similar role in their respective armies.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Again an interesting comment about the use of Fire Prisms. So you are prepared to take them in 5x FP formations for 325 points, but not as an 'upgrade'. What stats are you using?

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

I'd just like to add a quick comment about Fire Prisms.

At Open War last saturday my first game was against Andy and his Eldar. As part of his army he had taken a formation of Fire Prisms (Using Swordwind + Official Errata). As I was playing Marines with a Landing Craft, Thunderhawk and Thunderbolts, this was the first formation that I attacked and effectively sacrificed my warhound to break. Previous experience has shown that with AA they are the bane of air assaults and a high priority target.

It would be interesting to hear what Andy's other opponents reactions were.

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Fire Prisms had AA when they first appeared in Epic 40k. That they didn't have it when the unit was transferred to W40k is likely to be a product of the fact that there weren't any aircraft in the game at that time (and still aren't outside Apocalypse).

They have AA in Epic because they always have. Whether that means they should is another matter. Personally I have no problem with dropping it.

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I play with At2+ no AA.

In my oppinion it does not make much sense to mix it with Falcons with this stats, due to range, plus i want to attack other targets with the FP then the Falcons as i want to use the Lace ability of the FP.

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