I am among those that think the 1.8 revisions go too far, and the comments I made earlier in this thread form part of this critique.

On Hit-&-run and the 'static' nature of the list, the whole point about the Eldar is that they are "soap bubbles" armed with "sledgehammers". They must avoid being shot at and so where the enemy is spread across most of the table, the 'move away' will be back towards their own edge. This coupled with the potential for failing to activate when they have a BM often makes it hard for the Eldar to move forwards in sufficient numbers. In my experience, any army with even moderate long-range shooting capabilities can usually halt the Eldar sufficiently to out-manoeuver them because on failing to activate, the Eldar usually have to halt and remove BMs (having no other means of getting rid of BMs).

While I accept that the original 'Spirit Stones' rule was overpowered, IMHO some alternative mechanism needs to be applied to redress the balance slightly. Now whether this is to add 'Leader' to Farseers and Exarchs, grant -1 for marshalling, or allow them to pay extra for adding a "Warlock", they need something to correct the current situation which makes them very static at least initially.

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I think Matt was probably expressing a combination of his opinion which is that the removal of the pulse rule took a bit of character from the list combined with my opinion which is it led to a more static approach.

The reason I think it did this obviously applies to my own personal experience and the effect it had on the eldar list I used at tournaments and also my own personal opinion of what hit and run should represent - which I accept is not the majority view.

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Just my 2 Cents:

- Pulse is ok like it is now
- Revenants need to drop in points or go back to 3+
- Some replacement for the Spiritstones would realy be very helpfull

I hate it if i want to start a cool manoeuver and fail the 2nd activation, often exposing the first formation i moved in for support or something. It´s ok to try it with Aspects/Titans but all other things tend to get realy risky if you want to do something cool with them.

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What do you guys mean by "static"?

For me, the original incarnation was "static" because it was more an Imperial Guard "stand and deliver" style of play than anything remotely Eldar-ish.

Pulse weapons strongly emphasized to-hit mods, which meant Sustained Fire was extremely attractive, and Spirit Stones allowed Eldar with even a modicum of self-preservation to rally strongly.  The result was that Eldar tended to move as little as possible to maximize offensive fire.

In a lot of cases it was just flat out worth it to stay in the open for the opportunity to Sustain Fire.  They could wipe out so many enemy forces that they didn't face any more threat than if they shot and moved away.  The only shooting unit that moved consistently was the Scorpion because at 2+ it didn't gain anything from Sustain Fire in most cases, so they would shoot/move.

So... a handful of Guardian Warhosts slogged forward slowly, controlling a disproportionate amount of area due to the threat of the Avatar and shrugging off ridiculous firepower due to 4+RA Wraithguard meat shields, while the armor and Revenants sat close behind daring anyone to come close enough to attack them.  It was a slow, rolling castle formation grinding its way across the board, which is about as un-Eldar as I can imagine.

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Neal

Oh, I must try that, finally an eldar style of play I can understand!

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I am not that experienced in Eldar playstyle because I started playing them only with the new version of rules but I have to say, that I like the rules as they are now. In our group Eldar are always zipping around (MSM style) and very seldom sustain fire which I think is very characterful. Ok...Revenants are a bit weak in comparison to other 650 points formations but not by much (at least in my feeling). The reinvention of the pulse rule (I do not like it in BFG either) adds to much randomness into firepower that should be reliable.
I also do like the fireprism stats.
I do not know how eldar play with spirit stones but we feel, that Eldar, as they are now, require careful planning but reward it, if you pull it off greatly. Feals fluffy to me.

My 2 Cents...

For the record, I didn't mean that last post to sound so much like a rant.  I was just trying to explain how and why that slow, "static" type of play worked.

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Neal

Well in my experience, I want to try to move about, but often find that the formation fails to activate. This is due to the 2+ initiative with all the other factors (formation size, armour, my dice rolls etc).

The need to avoid or remove BMs dictates a strategy of a high activation count (hoping to move significant formations late to prepare for the next turn) and BM avoidance or removal.
Indeed, I have often found that I do better if the opponent forces me to move nothing off the baseline for at least the first half of turn. Even then, as others have noted, the 2+ initiative with an additional +1 for BMs mean that every third formation will fail to activate, and this rises to every other formation if you are trying to retain with a formation that also has BMs (Farseer excepted of course).

So what do you do when a formation fails to activate? In other races you can consider moving or even shooting, but with the Eldar you usually have to remove BMs which leaves the formation 'static'.

In my somewhat biased experience this creates a bit of a bi-polar experience, if you can get sufficient numbers of formations into position with limited damage, the Eldar can be very dangerous, especially when able to use the hit-&-run to perform multiple assaults. However if they suffer even moderate damage early on, the army often fails to move and is then picked off with impunity. These effects can be exemplified by my recent experiences at OW12:-

Game #1 vs 10 activations of Orks. I 'hid' throughout turn#1 until the orks unwisely moved a formation within range of my Guardians sitting in their Wave Serpents. This allowed me to repulse a significant portion of the Orks and advance 5-6 formations into the centre of the battlefield, from where they were able to maul the rest of the Orks in turns #2 & #3. Result 4-0

Game #2 vs 12 activations of Marines. Despite keeping the terminators off-table and putting another formation in a THawk leaving 10 activations, Space bombardment and shooting by two THawks and TBolts left one bike formation broken and BMs on another 4-5. The Marines won the stratey roll for #2, destroying my BTS and breaking an intermingled bike formation. The BMs meant I was unable to activate several other formations allowing the Marines to concentrate on my left flank destroying or breaking most of the Eldar formations by the end of turn #3. Result 0-4

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Gavin: I think there is also somewhat of a tendancy for some Eldar players to use the Eldar's Move-Shoot-Move ability to move forwards 30cm, shoot, then move backwards 30cm (ending up exactly where they started), and effectively making the army's appearance "static" turn-to-turn.

This, combined with the Eldar's not-incredible rate of activations that you cite can lend the impression of an army that's for the most part not moving all that much.

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So, if it is a problem of having no mechanism to manage BMs, what's the solution?

I mean, you could make eldar ingore the -1 to activate effect of BMs, but that doesn't really fit with background. You could just make them 1+ init, but that would probably be too good. You could make farseers leaders, but that doesn't help most of the army (and guardian formations have the least problem with carrying BMs anyway).

You could try something more esoteric, like:

Eldar formations that chose to marshall can move AND shoot with a -1 to-hit modifier.

OR

Eldar formations within 30cm of unit with farsight can ignore intiative modifiers due to BMs.

OR

Eldar formations that march add +1 to their initiative roll.


There are lots of other options, but what's the answer?

I think also there is a problem with internal balance between units. Void Spinners are by far and away the best SHT in the list. The aspects get overshadowed by certain combos.
Fire prisms in NetEA have lost I think any use with the dropping of AA - there are always other ground shooting formations you want. Thats not to say the Eldar should have them as AA - I prefer them not to! Its just whats left for them? Fighter bombers are just to pricey to use compared to nightwings. And finally war walkers are pretty scarce though don't know for what reason.

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And yet I almost never use them, and don't feel deprived when using Scorpions or Storm Serpents instead.


I've found Prisms extremely useful for long ranged precision tank elimination with almost no risk of enemy retaliation.


I think the lack of War Walkers maybe that they weren't that great in earlier versions of the game so few people actually have them.

I've found they make quite a deadly garrison/overwatch formation; the option in the NetEA list to take five at a "reduced" price might make them more popular...

But, again, this is all more discussion that should be happening in the EA Eldar section.

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Indeed, I know people who don't use warhounds with their space marines as well

Storm Serpents 'don't count' as they are an army wide style choice rather than a raw firepower choice

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Not knowing anything but move-shoot-move is one of the worst inventions.  

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hm.. the longer i think about it, the stranger it gets that Eldar are perhaps the Army with the worst initiativ to activate.

Ok, Orks got 3+ but they get +2 if they use their "fav orders" like engage, double and get bonus to ralley if there are enough left.

Tyranids also get +2 on all important orders and can remove BMs like nothing or just ignore them.

Imps got 2+ Ini too, but can have a lot of leaders to remove them.


Perhaps this would be a solution:

eldar remove BMs like normal, but if after that only one BM is left to a formation they remove this one too.

This at least prevents gosh darned the eldar up with puting 2 BMs on all important formations with Aircraft and stuff like that and allows them to rally easier if only under light enemyfire.

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