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Black Legion list for review
Bombot
 Post subject: Black Legion list for review
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:53 am 
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Hello all,

I am thinking of getting the Chaos troops I promised myself, but I'd first like some comments on the 3k point force I have sketched out:

Chosen Retinue - 4 stands, Obliterators 335
Black Legion Retinue - Noise Marines, Rhinos, Daemonic Pact 510
Black Legion Retinue - Obliterator, Chaos Champion, Icon Bearer, Daemonic Pact 475
Forlorn Hope Retinue - Rhinos 145
Raptor cult - 6 stands, Daemonic Pact 235
Armoured company - 6 Land Raiders 450
Assault company - 3 Decimators 675
Daemonettes - 5 stands 100
Keeper of Secrets 75

TOTAL 3000

Not a huge number of activations there.  Is this going to be much of a problem with this type of list?  

PS - I wanted to include some daemons just because the Warmaster GDs look really cool!  :devil:

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firestorm40k
 Post subject: Black Legion list for review
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:00 pm 
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You might want to add some aircraft?  That'll increase your aa firepower, and give you a couple more activations, too. :)
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Mephiston
 Post subject: Black Legion list for review
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:57 pm 
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Personally I don't think the GD in a 3000 point list is going to earn its points.
I too have got the warmaster model but have yet to paint or use it.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Black Legion list for review
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:41 pm 
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(Bombot @ Aug. 15 2007,11:53)
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PS - I wanted to include some daemons just because the Warmaster GDs look really cool! ?:devil:

Yeah, they do look great, especially the Greaters!

If you really want a daemonic presence army, I'd recommend going with a Lost and the Damned instead, they are much better equipped for summoning.

Essentially, Chaos Marines can already do all the things Daemons do already, they don't "need" them; the points spent on daemonic gear is, usually, better spent on more Marine units.

For Cultists, the Daemons can provide excellent support and strike capability, something they tend to lack.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Black Legion list for review
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:38 pm 
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I'd use daemons but I'd drop the GD.

Unfortunately I think we made them too difficult to summon.

What are you using the Forlorn Hope for? If you're going to garrison it I'd lose the Rhinos.

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Mephiston
 Post subject: Black Legion list for review
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:39 pm 
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I know you don't like rhinos on the FH but I like the fact I can garrison the formations and then reach anywhere on the table in one move.
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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Black Legion list for review
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:40 pm 
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(Chroma @ Aug. 15 2007,05:41)
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Essentially, Chaos Marines can already do all the things Daemons do already, they don't "need" them; the points spent on daemonic gear is, usually, better spent on more Marine units.

I still like them for assaults. Or for defending against an oncoming assault.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Black Legion list for review
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:14 pm 
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7 activations at 3000 points is okay when some of them are as rock-hard as those CSM retinues.

I've not found that Decimators en masse give good performance.  I wouldn't take all 3 of them in a single formation.  If you're concerned about activations, splitting them up 1-2 would give you another activation and probably improve their performance as well.

I'm not sure what your plan for the army is.  You have sort of a slow group with Decimators and the garrison Retinue, and then a bunch of fast stuff that can work maneuver.  That's not a bad general plan but I'm not sure the slow stuff is enough to form a hard anchor and I'm not sure the fast stuff isn't too light, even with Pacts.

There is only one formation that can summon the GD, so if it's neutralized (broken, champion killed, etc.), your GD is permanently off the board.  Also, with multiple pacts and a formation that has a Champion, you will run through your supply of lesser daemons quite quickly.

While I think that at 3000 points a daemon-oriented force is perfectly viable (even the GD), you don't have the spare points to just spread summoning kit around for contingency purposes.  You need to have a defined role for summoning in your list.

One possibility would be to think of the daemons as boosts for the light, fast formations.  That would entail dropping the GD and the summoning kit for it (Icon/Champion), adding more LDs, and a Pact for the Forlorn Hope, and maybe more Raptors.  You still have zippy, light formations, but any one of them getting through can bring serious pain.

Another possibility would be to focus on more of a "hammer" strategy.  Drop the Noise Marine Rhinos for a Champion as a "backup" for GD summoning.  Garrison the 2 big retinues out front, using the Noise Marine retinue for area denial while the primary summoning retinue moves into position to bring out the KoS.  The Decimators would be good support for these, moving up behind them and giving a powerful if somewhat static core position.  The fast stuff would all be reserves to react to the enemy, probably primarily speed bumps or distractions to keep your slow retinues from being combo-assaulted to death and to hem in the enemy so they can't escape from the big hammer or the Retinues/Decimators.

But those are just approaches I might take.  Perhaps you have a plan that I'm just not grasping from the army list.


BTW, the deamon pool is simply LD and GD.  You don't have to specify type until you actually summon them to the board.  You could summon daemonettes or beasts with the LD pool, depending on what you think is best at that time.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Black Legion list for review
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:26 pm 
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As opposed to Neal, I would be concerned about the number of activations the army has.
If I was playing against it I would target the Forlorn Hope and Raptors first to reduce your number of activations and then on subsquent turns aim to box you in with sacrificial formations.

Just my point of view ?:;):

Tim

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Steve54
 Post subject: Black Legion list for review
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:37 pm 
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I would agree with Tim, at 3k I would always aim for 9-10 formations - anything less than that a good opponent will take advantage of

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Black Legion list for review
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:25 pm 
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(Steve54 @ Aug. 15 2007,07:37)
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I would agree with Tim, at 3k I would always aim for 9-10 formations - anything less than that a good opponent will take advantage of

Or build your army with the expectation that your opponent will have more activations and then plan your strategy accordingly.

I think its better to create a plan for the army and build to that than it is to build to a specific number of activations.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Black Legion list for review
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:26 pm 
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(Mephiston @ Aug. 15 2007,06:39)
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I know you don't like rhinos on the FH but I like the fact I can garrison the formations and then reach anywhere on the table in one move.

Then you shouldn't be doing a garrison then :-)

Unless you only want to put out a picket for a turn to put some early BMs on a unit but that only works against some armies, like Guard, and with anyone else a formation with Rhinos is AT bait unless you can hide the Rhinos from LOS.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Black Legion list for review
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:34 pm 
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(pixelgeek @ Aug. 15 2007,16:25)
QUOTE

(Steve54 @ Aug. 15 2007,07:37)
QUOTE
I would agree with Tim, at 3k I would always aim for 9-10 formations - anything less than that a good opponent will take advantage of

Or build your army with the expectation that your opponent will have more activations and then plan your strategy accordingly.

I think its better to create a plan for the army and build to that than it is to build to a specific number of activations.

Absolutely, but at the same time one of the factors that you have to take into account is activation count together with over issues such as AA, mobility, bts formation etc.

If you use 7 formations then I would take out the small formations first then all I would have to do is destroy/break a couple more formations and my opponent basically has no chance of winning, or just use throwaway scout formations as speed bumps that have to be moved, therefore tieing up the limited activations and allowing free rein with the others.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Black Legion list for review
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:38 pm 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Aug. 15 2007,15:26)
QUOTE
As opposed to Neal, I would be concerned about the number of activations the army has.
If I was playing against it I would target the Forlorn Hope and Raptors first to reduce your number of activations and then on subsquent turns aim to box you in with sacrificial formations.

Just my point of view  :;):

Tim

I wouldn't consider that a problem with the activation count, per se.  That seems to me to be more a problem of fragile formations that can be picked off.  I did comment on that.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Black Legion list for review
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:57 pm 
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(Steve54 @ Aug. 15 2007,08:34)
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If you use 7 formations then I would take out the small formations first then all I would have to do is destroy/break a couple more formations and my opponent basically has no chance of winning, or just use throwaway scout formations as speed bumps that have to be moved, therefore tieing up the limited activations and allowing free rein with the others.

Indeed.

Neal commented on that as well and I think that if you are going to have one Forlorn Hope that putting it out as a Garrison is just asking for it to be broken in the first turn.

Better to use it as an assault backstop (defensively or offensively) instead.

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