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The State of the Hobby

 Post subject: The State of the Hobby
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:04 am 
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Something has been on my mind for a while now, and I wanted to see if it is really just me, or others have the same feeling. I am getting the impression that currently it is a really bad time for our favourite hobby (wargaming...  :;): ). While this has a lot to do with GW, and its treatment of SG, it goes beyond this.

For example, like many people, I 'collect' or have a vested interest in a number of games. The most promenent are:

Epic Armageddon
Battlefleet Gothic
CAV
Confrontation
Vis Bellica
Mein Panzer

These give me a good mix of scale and genre, and ensure that I always have another miniature to assemble and then push to the back of the shelf.

However, to examine these in more detail...

Epic and BFG are currently pretty much dead. Yes, Epic got excellent coverage in Warseers Firebase, and BFG will actually have an article in the next WD and has three AdMech vessels released, but SG as an entity no longer exists and I dont think that anyone is optimistic about the future of the games. Even Jervis is saying 'next time we will get it right... really'.

No-one seems to play Vis Bellica any more. I still like it, and historical games have the significant advantage that they dont rely on a single type of mini, or a shortage of background. Currently, if anyone wants to get into gaming, historical games seem the best option. Mein Panzer fits here as well, although there was supposed to be another edition of the rules, and while I have not been following this too closely, I dont think that this has been released, and is now very late.

CAV limped to a second edition, but Reaper cant even get the resources to get an actual printed version of the rules out, have outsourced development to a group of players without giving them any support, and there are still nonew minis on the horizon at least for the next few months. If something hits us before Christmas, I will be pleased.

Confrontation is going pre-painted with fourth edition later this year. This means no more unpainted metal miniatures (pretty much what Rackham was most famous for). Having got the rules, I am now facing a game with no support and no new models that interest me. They are pretty much ignoring their existing customer base, and this annoys me.

I dont play Mongoose games, but I heard that they did pretty much the same thing - stopped development of any new SST stuff and switched over without worry about the current players.

So, where does this leave me? I dont expect constant updates, but when a company doesnt consider its own product, and I cant be sure that I will be able to continue expanding my forces, I have to wonder why I should care.

It seems that there are some bright spots - mainly in the 6mm science fiction arena - but generally the industry seems to either be in trouble, or totally unfriendly to their own customers.

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 Post subject: The State of the Hobby
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:12 am 
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Maybe.

I'm no voice in the matter. I only play Battlefleet Gothic and my wallet is still to empty to have everything BFG related I want.

As for updates: yes, I miss something there. More commitment. But why should SG/GW invest? The community already provides itself (Firebase, Incoming, Warp Rift, etc).

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 Post subject: The State of the Hobby
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:35 am 
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On the other hand, other games are flourishing. ?Flames of War for example has almost single handedly revolutionised 15mm WW2 and is so successful the production has just been moved from NZ to Malaysia to scale up using cheaper labour costs.

Its also interesting to note the shift in emphasis over the past few years. ?The impact of collectable card games has shifted toward collectable mini games, which are pre-painted and quick play types. ?Maybe this is a part way solution to the XBox phenomenon? I do think they are less people painting lead and plastic, but at least this way they are gaming and being social rather than in front of a TV.

Yes, GW is in trouble compared to where it was, but other companies are doing OK and I dont think its really any different to 5 yrs ago





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 Post subject: The State of the Hobby
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:39 am 
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Question: are these manufacturers are failing to support their product because people aren't buying, or are they just moving on to other things?
I'm interested, because I like to know if people would by more 6mm tanks and stuff if they could. So, is there room in them market for a new SF / near future type 6mm micro armor game? I ask because I've recently become addicted to sculpting small tanks and scenery and stuff, and casting in resin. I've also begun working on a new ruleset.
But if the market really is dying, I'd be better off sticking with the resin horses I usually sell....
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 Post subject: The State of the Hobby
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:34 pm 
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The simple answer to all this is of course the constant expansion of strategy PC and console games. With online options becoming available even for the consoles the social aspect in becoming less and less a barrier. For someone wanting to get into wargaming the maths are pretty straightforward: Do I invest ?100-200 in a game where I have to spendconsaiderable time learning the rules, painting miniatures (disregarding pre-painted miniatures for a second) and terrain, and spend time searching for people to play with in my local area. Or do I spend ?20-50 on a computer game that is almost instantly playable, with instant access to opponents across the globe at all times of day.
There will always be people who prefer things the old fashioned way. People enjoy the hobby in it's entirety. The trouble is that there's always been those who thought painting and modelling was a necessary evil for wargaming. Well with ?computer games that's just no longer the case.
As graphics become more and more detailed and unit AI become more advanced the actual difference in playing experience will begin to swing in favour of the PC games. Strategy today has luckily become much more interesting than the old Command and Conquer game engine (Although it seems GW didn't realize that when they made Dawn Of War).
I think it is very wise for most manufacturers to seriously consider a switch to digital wargames. The wargaming crowd has always been fairly limited while the computer games crowd is a cnstantly expanding market. Playing computer games are no longer considered particularly "nerdy". It is perfectly acceptable for adults to play computer games as well.
As more and more wargaming miniatures are designed digitally the actual differnce in production methods are getting smaller. At some point most manufacturers are gpoing to have to ask themselves: "Are we better off continuing to do what we do, or is the switch inevitable so we beter make it as soon as possible?"

However, like I said, this is the simplified answer. I'm sure there are many other factors that play a part as well.

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 Post subject: The State of the Hobby
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:11 pm 
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Maybe simplified but it holds a lot of truth.

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 Post subject: The State of the Hobby
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:08 pm 
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(Warmaster Nice @ Jul. 02 2007,07:34)
QUOTE
there's always been those who thought painting and modelling was a necessary evil for wargaming

I think the Warmaster has hit the nail on the head.  A few of us enjoy the painting, converting, and terrain building as much as playing.  Those who just want to sit down and play are finding more and more places to spend their cash besides unpainted minis.  Hopefully the market won't shrink to the point the suppliers no longer find it worthwhile to support even in small ways.

@Reaver
   There will always be those interested in new rules systems, but it's bound to be difficult for a small company/individual to make a go of it.  I would think it would be much easier to produce your minis through an existing company and try to fit into their rules set.  DRM, Exodus Wars, or Command Horizon as examples.  Personally, I would love you see your work produced in the large volumes these operations could accommodate.

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 Post subject: The State of the Hobby
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:16 pm 
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While I think CS and WN are correct, I hope they are wrong.  But I do believe that the community can keep things in motion for some time waiting for the possible renewed interest in miniatures.

Personally I quit videogames to get into Epic simply because I wanted to hold something tangible.  The appeal of a little toy tank in my hand was too much to ignore.  Perhaps there will be a time when people have become bored with seeing something virtual and the mini hobby will flourish again.  Anything's possible.

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 Post subject: The State of the Hobby
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:01 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Jul. 02 2007,18:16)
QUOTE
Personally I quit videogames to get into Epic simply because I wanted to hold something tangible. ?The appeal of a little toy tank in my hand was too much to ignore. ?Perhaps there will be a time when people have become bored with seeing something virtual and the mini hobby will flourish again. ?Anything's possible.

I completely agree. I play Star Wars Galaxies which is an online MMORPG. Everything I have achieved in that game is stored on the servers of Sony Online Entertainment. The second they choose to discontinue support (And support is already fading as it is getting a pretty old game) everything I have spent time and money achieving will be lost.
My Epic miniatures on the other hand are there forever (or at least untill a future GF/wife decides they take up too much space :p )

I think the younger crowd are the ones mainly shifting towards computer games simply because it is more convenient. Older wargamers are too environmentally damaged to move that easily :p :D.
Seriously though: To older wargamers time is less of a factor. You paint and play when you've got time. Sometimes several times a month, sometimes only once a year or so. It doesn't matter as much that it takes time to prepare for the game.

I hope I don't sound too nostalgic, but I do remember as a kid when I saw some of my dad's old toys in the attic,  I thought these were really cool because they were so very different from the kind of stuff I had myself. It is sort of the same thing: I think it'd be cool to have something tangible that my kids might look at one day and think: "Hey that's pretty neat. The old man wasn't always such a boring old geezer..." :D

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 Post subject: The State of the Hobby
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:12 pm 
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Trouble is, that you don't have to work SO hard to paint and glue stuff (let alone, shock horror, file away moulding lines) to play a video game. Handling toys is for kids, anyway. Or is it? If you have doubts, get a prepainted model! SO convenient.
Blargh.

I hold no grudge against computer games or prepainted stuff, but I guess this is the way things go, the less effort life requires, the better. And model-making seems to be a hobby not for 10, 12, 16, or 18-year lods, but 40-year olds.

Grump.

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 Post subject: The State of the Hobby
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:47 pm 
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(vanvlak @ Jul. 02 2007,13:12)
QUOTE
And model-making seems to be a hobby not for 10, 12, 16, or 18-year lods, but 40-year olds.

Unfortunately, you're right. My favorite local hoby store closed at the end of April partially because there wasn't an infusion of new blood into modeling (and tabletop wargaming). Computer games and die cast models took away a signficant chunk of the owner's sales.

I can understand why some gamers, especially younger ones, are lured to computer games: it's cheaper, it doesn't take hours upon hours to paint an army and you don't have to worry about coordinating player schedules to meet for a game. However, I have to agree with Warmaster and Moscovian. I like to have something tangible to show for my efforts.

In terms of company support, this might not be the best of times for our hobby, but as long as I'm still interested in it, it's worthwile for me. As I've said before, my interest in Epic is completely independent of what GW does. I am as enthused for the game now as I was during the hayday of SM2, as well as the Dark Ages of post-E40k. However, I do understand why a player's level of enthusiasm is a direct correlation to the amount of company support.

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 Post subject: The State of the Hobby
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:20 pm 
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Thanks for the responses, guys. There are two issues here, as I see it.

Prepainted and Computer Games

I agree that these two passtimes involve less setting up and a more instant result. However, if computer games were competing at the same level, we would have more actual tactical games, and a few less 'click-athon' games. People said the same kind of things about Pokeamon, collectable card games, clicky games and others. But wargames always bounced back.

If I say that the youth of today have a reduced attention span as a result of the MTV culture, would you guys send me off to a retirement home? ?:D

I can undestand that the popularity of wargames can fade and return, but this is not necessarily my main point...

State of the Industry

Whatever the demands of the market, it seems to me that the industry and companies have become less reliable and stable over the past one year.

It appears to me that this is a bad time to be a wargamer, and that the players in general are being treated fairly badly at the moment.

Of course, it could just be that I am going through a dis-illussioned phase. However, it seems to me that the only games that are reliable and stable right now are the ones that I am writing for my own use. Are there any games out there that actually have a guaranteed future and miniature range for the forseeable future - aside from the GW big two?

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 Post subject: The State of the Hobby
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:53 am 
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The problem with CAV is that Reaper is a miniatures company that also does a couple games.  They have a small staff and no one solely dedicated to the games.  Everyone's primary role revolves around the production of the miniatures.  The frustrating part is that they have some great ideas for the games that I really enjoy.  

As far as the CAV miniatures go, the process they use has a few extra steps than the usual "get the green, cast a master, make the mold, cast until mold is useless" process.  The break down is with the contracted 3D printing service.  I'm hoping the printer's contract is up soon because this isn't the first time they've caused a delay in Reaper's CAV miniature production.

On the whole though, I think the industry will be fine.  As long as there are people who want to push miniatures and roll dice there will be somebody selling them.  The trick is for us to make sure there are still people interested.

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 Post subject: The State of the Hobby
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:46 am 
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Let's play a bit of Devil's advocate here: Are computer games reallycheaper?

For example, if you want the latest Spec Hardware/Games, you might need to buy an X-Box 360 (?200-?300), or PS3 (around ?400), or a PC with all the top-spec hardware (anything up to ?1000)?  Then there's games - ?30-?60 a shot.

As a parent, what would you rather buy your child, or have them doing: spend up to ?1000 to have them shut themselves away from other people on their own; or an initial outlay of ?200 on an army & paints, to bring them in to a hobby where they can interact with other hobbyists, go to gaming clubs, etc etc etc.

??? :devil:

But it's not for the parents to decide; my fiancee's 9-year old son developed an interest in Warhammer after seeing me paint stuff.  He wanted to do a Guard army, so I let him have a handful of Cadians, but when he played a game and discovered that Marines don't die as easily as Guardsmen, he wanted to do Marines.  So I bought him 10 marines and a tank, and he got bored painting them - even thought they're Black :O   However, shortly after this I discovered I had an excess Epic Marine army from a lot I bought off eBay, he asked if he could have them so I gave them to him, encouraging him to put them in to a 'proper' E:A Marine army.  He occassionally decides he wants to paint some - in 8 months, he's painted about a third of the army.

But, I don't pressure him to do it - he does it when he feels like it (he's already showing a remarkable sense of good taste - he says he prefers painting Epic miniatures to 40k ones - probably 'cause they're quicker to do! :D ).  When I've finished the bulk of the terrain for our Wargaming centre, I'll sit down with him and see if he wants to finish this army.  He's only 9, so it'll be there when he wants it.

However, he is really in to the PSP he got for his birthday, something he's wanted for months.  To concur with what many other people are saying on this thread, that'll always be the problem when young people have to decide over video games or painting miniatures: you can just pick up a game and start playing, as opposed to the hours of time to finish an army before it's ready for gaming (no neccessarily painting, but just assembly time).

And yet I think young people can like both, and not neccessarily detract from the other.  I used to be involved in running a Gaming Club aimed at 10-18 year olds - it was always packed with an average of 30 of them each Sunday afternoon; all of those had Warhammer/40k armies, and for the most part too they had Play Stations etc.  But I guess they had support and encouragement to stay with the miniatures hobby at the same time, through the club, which is something I guess many young people don't have, hence they drift.

Well that's my lengthy diatribe on the subject!

As for me, well I think I'm a Class A pewter addict, hooked for life!  There's no competition in my mind over which I'd rather do: paint an army, or play a video game...


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