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Question about the development program for Epic
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=3763		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Brother-Captain Augustine [ Sun May 21, 2006 6:39 am ]
Post subject:  Question about the development program for Epic
Hello, Everybody!

I thought I'd just hop over from the GothiComms section of the forum to ask for some assistance.  I recently started a discussion on the main SG forum about the viability of a Fleet Champion program for BFG similar to the Army Champion program that is in place for E:A.  Primarily, we would like an insider's perspective of the advantages and disadvantages of the system as it stands.  Also, if there are any aspects of the system that you think don't work particularly well, and you think you have a better idea, please present those as well.  I suppose I should link you to the discussion now:  Thread on SG Forum  
Thanks in advance for your participation in this discussion.

BC Augustine
Author:  CyberShadow [ Mon May 22, 2006 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Question about the development program for Epic
I think that, like many things, it depends on who the actual Champions are - and therefore who selects them. As an open, community driven project, there are checks to make sure that the end result is balanced.

The possible drawbacks of the system are:

There is a view that the process is 'clique-y'. In some cases this is true, in others it is not. Where you have a development group made up of 'fans' of the force/fleet, there will always be the perspective that it is unbalanced.

There is also occassionally a problem of the view of the race. No-one really has exactly the same idea of what a particular race is, its strengths and weaknesses and what characterises it, and this can lead to problems.

There needs to be some considerable input from 'top management'. I disagree with the view on the SG thread that the HA should take part, but I do think that they would be good candidates for the 'steering group' basically giving the Fleet Champions ideas about what works and does not, to keep the feel of the fleet compared to all others.

As a Fleet Champion, it is often difficult to spend time keeping up with the changes made in other lists, and this can make it difficult for two new lists to remain balanced.

However, the real bonus of the system is that it keeps things active and moving along... something that BFG has needed for a long time!
Author:  Brother-Captain Augustine [ Tue May 23, 2006 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  Question about the development program for Epic
Thanks for that input, CS.  

Any other opinions?

Jon
Author:  dafrca [ Tue May 23, 2006 2:27 am ]
Post subject:  Question about the development program for Epic
I was a Champion for some time. I agree with everything CS has said.

>>There is a view that the process is 'clique-y'.

This is a major issue. Some people have the ability to post often and others only once in a while. There is a real tempatation to assume many posts mean better interest. Further, those who are "friends" with a Champion can have an unfair influance on the process.

>>There needs to be some considerable input from 'top management'.

This is the issue that did me in. We came up with ideas and were told they did not fit the image or fluff so it could not be used, but when we asked for input or clearification we were ignored for weeks and in one case five months. This can not be if the fan based developement is expected to work.

Issues like list versions not being posted etc become a major issue . Support of SG and their management is critical to the process.

dafrca
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue May 23, 2006 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Question about the development program for Epic
I think the "vision" for the fleets would not be a problem.  It's been an issue in EA primarily because some of the Champions are essentially creating their list almost from whole cloth.  If I understood the proposal correctly, the idea is essentially a rules review on the various fleets.  I'd say building a consensus on suitable tweaks would be much easier than creating a list wholesale.

As far as the "clique" factor, I think the biggest thing that champions can do to prevent that perception is to simply share information.  I try to go out of my way to answer questions about development and schedule and (if it's not already disseminated) why certain things were done.

Finally, there will almost unavoidably be some heated arguments with any changes so everyone participating needs to occasionally be reminded that it's just a game with tin soldiers. :p
Author:  primarch [ Wed May 24, 2006 1:40 am ]
Post subject:  Question about the development program for Epic
Quote (dafrca @ 22 May 2006 (21:27))
I was a Champion for some time. I agree with everything CS has said.

>>There is a view that the process is 'clique-y'.

This is a major issue. Some people have the ability to post often and others only once in a while. There is a real tempatation to assume many posts mean better interest. Further, those who are "friends" with a Champion can have an unfair influance on the process.

>>There needs to be some considerable input from 'top management'.

This is the issue that did me in. We came up with ideas and were told they did not fit the image or fluff so it could not be used, but when we asked for input or clearification we were ignored for weeks and in one case five months. This can not be if the fan based developement is expected to work.

Issues like list versions not being posted etc become a major issue . Support of SG and their management is critical to the process.

dafrca

Hi!

What is sad is that NetEpic had several years of experience in organizing, coordinating and bringing to fruition playtest data of all sorts....

...and yet no one thought to ask how we have done it for almost ten years without any of the forementioned problems.

Go figure.

Primarch
Author:  Brother-Captain Augustine [ Wed May 24, 2006 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Question about the development program for Epic
Well, considering I don't know anything about Net Epic, it would be hard to ask about it then, wouldn't it?  :D  

Please.....feel free to enlighten us.

Jon
Author:  dafrca [ Wed May 24, 2006 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Question about the development program for Epic
Quote (primarch @ 23 May 2006 (17:40))
What is sad is that NetEpic had several years of experience in organizing, coordinating and bringing to fruition playtest data of all sorts....

...and yet no one thought to ask how we have done it for almost ten years without any of the forementioned problems.

There is a big differance in the two. Netepic has always been about the fans. The very reason for it to exist is to serve the fan base. Thus it's click is everyone who wants to be part of it.  :laugh:

That can not be said for the overall way the Amry Champions were allowed to develope. There was very little guidance or even agreement on what the role was at first. Some champions treated it liek they were the designers and others had almost no say in the matter to champions who did not understand they were to "create from scratch" rather then just help track changes Jervis made.

This very loose enviroment allowed the issues to fester and grow.

Net Epic did not have these negative issues going for it. The main people involved were clear what they were doing and invited the rest to come along for the ride. Of course that is just my view from the outside looking in.

dafrca
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed May 24, 2006 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Question about the development program for Epic
The downsides to the NetEpic development is that it is inherently slow because it relies largely on building a consensus.

Despite Primarch's professed all-inclusiveness, it was also done by a relatively small, already tightly-knit group that had been hashing out issues amongst themselves for quite some time before the NetEpic project started.
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