Aircraft Stats...Need Help |
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Cuban Commissar
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Post subject: Aircraft Stats...Need Help  Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:26 am |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 2934
Location: Colorado, USA
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Ok guys here is the situation. ?I now own several flyers for my epic armies. ?One thing I have always wanted to do was adapt some flying rules for them.
I was originally thinking of using the original Crimson Skies rules because they have a design rules in the book. ?
Now the local game group here plays a set of WWII to Korean air combat game. ?So I was thinking an easy way to get some games in without teaching people new rules would be to match the 40K flyers to some historical aircraft. ?
So if you had to match the the 40K flyers to a matching WWII aircraft what would it be. ?I'm thinking in terms of armor, manuever, and speed in comaprison to the other 40K flyers.
As for armament I think I'm going to match the weapons up in such a fashion.
bigshoota/Heavy Bolter = 50 cal (heavy machine gun)
Autocannon = 20mm
Lascannon = 30mm
For example I think the Thunderbolt is perfect match up for the P-47 becaues it is heavily armored and armed, not fast or nimble, but can take a beating. ?
So how would we rate the following.
Lighting Fighter - FW190
Ork FW Figthta Bomba - Me 109
Eldar Nightwings - Zero, Spitfire
Eldar Phoenix - Mosquito
Tau Barracuda - Hellcat
Lets see what we come up with.
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Lion in the Stars
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Post subject: Aircraft Stats...Need Help Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:12 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
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I'd compare the 'cuda to a P38 Lightning, and the Phoenix to a B25 Mitchell.
The imperial Lightning is pretty lightly armed (compared to the rest of the FW fighters), but probably compares pretty well to a late FW190.
Ork FB is probably closer to an Allison Mustang.
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"For the Lion and the Emperor!"
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Cuban Commissar
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Post subject: Aircraft Stats...Need Help Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:08 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 2934
Location: Colorado, USA
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Thanks Lion,
I did a nice long article about sorting the aircraft by their performance. Here is a summary of my analysis. What do you guys think?
The speeds are based on the FW fluff in the Imperial armor books, with one modification.
Speed:
1. Eldar Nightwing (3600 KPH) yeah thats Mach 3!!!
2. Imperial Lighting (2400 KPH)
3. Ork Fighta Bomber (2300 KPH)
Now the Forge World book listed it's speed as 2100 KPH but I would not believe that the Orks would allow themselves to be out paced by a stinky weedy Humee fighter! 
4. Imperial Thunderbolt (2200 KPH)
5. Tau Barracuda (2100 KPH)
As a note the Eldar Phoenix can outrun all but the the Nightwing.
Maneuver:
1. Eldar Nightwing
2. Imperial Lighting
3. Tau Barracuda
4. Ork Fighta Bomber
5. Imperial Thunderbolt
Armor/Structure
1. Imperial Thunderbolt
2. Tau Barracuda
3. Ork Fighta-Bomba
4. Imperial Lighting
5. Eldar Nightwing
So Let's See
Imperial Thunderbolt - P-47
Imperial Lighting - FW190, Late Mustang
Tau Baracuda - P-38
Ork Fighta-Bomba - Early (Allison) Mustang, Me 109. I still think they can dance a little in the sky.
Eldar Nightwing - Zero
The hardest one for me is the tau bararcuda. It looks like a decent size aircraft and has a feel of a heavier type fighter but not much has been written on it.
If any one has the Imperial Armor III, do they mention Barracuda dueling aginst the imperial fighters at all?
It would be interesting to note what they wrote in the fluff.
As for guns I went with this mapping:
Hvy Bolter, Big Shoota, Burst Cannon = 30cal
Multilaser, Assualt Cannon, Shuriken Cannon = 50cal
Ion cannon, Autocannon = 20mm
Bright Lance = 23mm
Lascannon= 30mm
I know if we all went with our gut feel. The heavy bolters and big shootas would be more in line with 50 cal guns, but with so many things after it the lascannon would count as a friggin artillery peice. 
This is a good list so far. Any one else would liek to contribute
Thanks
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Lion in the Stars
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Post subject: Aircraft Stats...Need Help Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:52 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
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I have IA3, but there's very little about the air war (other than it being a tit-for-tat escalation). The general description of a 'cuda is that it's a better fighter than the TBolt, but the Imperial pilots are better on average. Broadly comparable, in other words.
The P38 and P47 were pretty comparable (P38G/H/J v P47D), with a slight maneuverability advantage to the P38 (the Fork-tailed Devil). A good Jug driver could beat an average P38, though, so I think that's a good comparison.
With the overall preformance of the Nightwing, I'd almost have to compare it to a Corsair, Griffon-engined (very late) Mustang, or maybe the Me262.
Mitchell is too slow to be a comparison for a Phoenix. I withdraw that comparison, and replace it with a Mossie nightfighter.
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Cuban Commissar
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Post subject: Aircraft Stats...Need Help Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:07 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 2934
Location: Colorado, USA
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I think the misquito might be a very good match for the Phoenix.
The only place they make a direct comparison between the Barracuda and Thunderbolt is in one of the earlier Imperial armor books, before the hard backs, that I have.
It stated...
The Barracuda was slightly slower than the Thunderblt but the advance sensors and targeting systems allowed Tau pilots to obtain target lock faster.
The Tau air caste piltos had superior 3 dimensional situational awesness but the raw experience of the imperial pilots was something the Tau were struggling to match.
Other than that I imagine they most be very close to each other.
I have experience with the Me262 in this game system, Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC), While it is extremely fast it doesn't turn that well. That is why I avoided that match up. The Eldar should dance in the sky well.
I'm not completely familar with the Corsair I know it was a good aircraft was it very manuervable?
Thanks for the feedback Lion. If I make the project happen I'll send you the results.
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Dwarf Supreme
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Post subject: Aircraft Stats...Need Help Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:41 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
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Location: Canton, CT, USA
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I believe the Corasir was more maneuvarable than the Hellcat.
I think an Allison Mustang would be a better comparison for an Ork fighta-bomma than an Me 109. The Allison Mustang, originally designated the A-36 Apache, was designed from the beginning to be a fighter bomber. The Me 109 was more of a pure fighter.
I agree that the Mossquito, especially the light bomber variant, would be a better match for the Phoenix, than the Mitchell.
I also agree that while it was very fast, the Me 262 wasn't all that maneuverable.
As far as a comparison between the P-38 and P-47, I think the P-47 was a better fighter bomber since it could withstand more damage. Radial engine aircraft, which are air cooled, are less susceptible to getting shot down than in-line engine aircraft, whihx are liquid cooled.
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Cuban Commissar
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Post subject: Aircraft Stats...Need Help Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:35 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 2934
Location: Colorado, USA
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I had an idea and wanted to trow it up here...
How about the British Typhoon for the ork Fighter Bomber?
Just wondering.
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vanvlak
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Post subject: Aircraft Stats...Need Help Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:18 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:52 am
Posts: 10348
Location: Malta
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Aha - thanks Commissar, it's all clearer now.
ummm - two points to begin with.
The GW speeds are unrealistic for the designs they are matched with - I really don't know how a Thunderbolt or a Fighta-Bomma couls reach Mach numbers without disintegrating. But that's not really relevant, as CC's idea is to use existing aircraft as 'prototypes' for the 40K aeroplanes. Which should work.
It's funny that the Thunderbolt is represented by the P-47D - which is also the Thunderbolt! 
How would you represent the altitude (given that the telescopic struts are not available)?
I feel the Typhoon is too fast for the Bomma - I'd rather go with the Ju-87b Stuka - the Orks would love dive bombing, and some of the later Stukas were used for anti-tank and ground attack missions too.
The Nightwing - Lightning relation would be closer to Mig-15 - Fw190 than Mustang/Corsair - Fw190.
The Phoenix might actually be the He219, or an Ar234, depending on whether you wnt a superb aircraft with the emphasis on manoeuverability or sheer speed.
:O
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Cuban Commissar
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Post subject: Aircraft Stats...Need Help Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:39 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 2934
Location: Colorado, USA
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Thanks V,
Welcome to the Epic Aerodrome...
Altitude:
In the game we actually use a retratable pointer with an alligator clip at the end. I think the guy got them from used car antennas. So there are eight Altitude levels possible in the game.
The A36 Apache which has been a popular vote for the ork fighta bomba was design as a dive bomber. So it's a good match.
The Eldar having Mig 15 stats may be the way to go. It would simply tear through any and I mean any other fighter. You can place 2 Nightwings on the board and they would have a good chance of taking on 3, maybe 4, times their number.
Do you guys think that is the best way to go, give the Nightwing complete superiority?
Or maybe find another altenative, perhaps in one of the immediate post war aircraft. Like a post war Spitfire, the one with 4 prop blades. I don't know it's name.
Take Care
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vanvlak
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Post subject: Aircraft Stats...Need Help Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:47 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:52 am
Posts: 10348
Location: Malta
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I meant the large bomma = Ju87b, not the fighta bomma - sorry!
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blackhorizon
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Post subject: Aircraft Stats...Need Help Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:56 pm |
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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:40 pm
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Location: Netherlands
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At the SG board there is also thread about an Epic Airwar game, just as an info.
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http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=19176
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Cuban Commissar
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Post subject: Aircraft Stats...Need Help Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:21 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 2934
Location: Colorado, USA
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I'll go check it out. ?Thanks
Oh the Spitfire I was thinking off was the Mark 22.
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Ginger
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Post subject: Aircraft Stats...Need Help Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:08 am |
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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
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Location: London, UK
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Hi
I am not familiar with the rule set you originally describe. Is it an alternative move system like EA?
I also like the Blue max set of manoeuvers and have toyed with producing a similar set for EA air wars - though replacing the hex system with turns - check out Sotec's rules ?in the SG board
WIP Epic Air War McLeod v1.0
and the discussion around the principles and other rules concepts)
Epic: Air Wars
However, am I right that you are looking to have a limited number of speeds per move for the different aircraft(eg 10cms, 15cms, 20cms and 25cms) and different turn capabilities (which can be acheived by angled templates eg 30, 45, 60 degrees)?
As for heights, at present on the SG forum we are erring on the side of ignoring different heights in combat for simplicity (and partly because modern 21st century A/c can reach 60,000 ft in 207 seconds making this element practically redundant!).
Regards
Ginger (Biggles on SG site)
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Cuban Commissar
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Post subject: Aircraft Stats...Need Help Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:16 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 2934
Location: Colorado, USA
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Thanks Ginger,
DFC is a homebrewed version of an old Italian air combat game. It has no connection with epic at all.
I want to use it because it is a system that is firmly entrenched at my club and if I hand poeple stats sheets they can understand it without any change.
I have read the threads above and they are very interesting.
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