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Too close for comfort?
dafrca
 Post subject: Too close for comfort?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:48 am 
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In the thread about the napolionics, it was said that WWII was gaining popularity because it was moving away into more history as those who lived it are going away.

Is there something to be said for that? If a war game is too close to home, are people uncomfortable?

A war game about Iraq, for example, would it be "odd" at this time?

Does a person need a slight detachment, either historical or SciFi?

dafrca

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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: Too close for comfort?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:13 pm 
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IMO it is just that with wars people inevitably have "issues". The further in history a war moves the less these "issues" matter. That and the fact that many if not most people who actually were there probably won't like gaming their personal experiences.

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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: Too close for comfort?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:30 pm 
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Quote (dafrca @ 14 2005 June,06:48)
In the thread about the napolionics, it was said that WWII was gaining popularity because it was moving away into more history as those who lived it are going away.

Is there something to be said for that? If a war game is too close to home, are people uncomfortable?

A war game about Iraq, for example, would it be "odd" at this time?

Does a person need a slight detachment, either historical or SciFi?

dafrca

You summed up my feelings exactly. I don't mind fantasy/sci-fi or historical but I personally draw the line at 20th Century wargaming.

I had a great-grandfather who fought in WW1 (army) and both grandfathers who fought in WW2 (army & navy). As a kid it was great listening to some of the stories that they could tell. I would n't want to cheapen their memories by trying to reanact them.

But many of my friends at local gaming club enjoy playing micro-armour. I can understand it's appeal but just not for me.

Cheers

James

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MaksimSmelchak
 Post subject: Too close for comfort?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:40 pm 
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Hi Dafrca and Gang,

As a game reviewer for a magazine, the most popular games tend not to be ultra-modern.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Too close for comfort?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:40 pm 
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Yes, bring a former Military Professional, historian and bitter old man, love the study of history and military science/subjects.  However, in my past I gamed and studied history (and still do), intensely ...  But with that, I opened a new horizen with Sci-Fi (Epic) as I was getting out of the Army.  Sci-fi gaming was close to what I knew and loved (and did), but was not like "work", my job ...  And it not only expanded my paradigm, but converted it.  Reading Hammer's Slammers is like going home ... but not ... and still giving me the same feelings/comfort ... but different.  Military Sci-fi takes you/me out of the politics and historical realities of warfare and is more of a "null set" exercise it weapons, strategy and tactics.  With each army having it's own tendencies, predilections and history ... to be dealt with ...  Just like Vietnam, Somalia and the Gulf /Afghan Wars, they are all too close to home to play a game with.  However, in my mind to be studied and reviewed, for now.   Of course I don't have any reservations about killings Orks, Eldar, Tau, etc., etc. ...

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Tas
 Post subject: Too close for comfort?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:45 pm 
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I think it very very true Dafrca.

Like L4, I study all relevant military aspects as a Professional.  That said, there are things I wnt do for personal reasons, including family associations.  Besides, there are so many other areas of great interest where this isnt the case that it hardly stunts my field of gaming!

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Too close for comfort?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:09 pm 
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I agree, Dafrca has hit the nail on the head. Vets tend not to want re-enact their combat experience. Heck, many even have difficulty simply talking about it. Since I have no personal connection to WWII (grandfathers too old, father/uncle too young to serve) it is one of my favorite subjects. However, I can understand the need for detachment. I was a history major in college, but I decided to concentrate on modern European history, rather than US history, because I couldn't be as objective with US history as European history.

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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: Too close for comfort?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:33 pm 
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I was a history major in college, but I decided to concentrate on modern European history, rather than US history, because I couldn't be as objective with US history as European history.


Interesting. You have actually raised one of my favorite dreams. Namely, history books should be written by those whose nations had no connection whatsoever with the events they write about. Of course, they should also have a complete access to the archives of the relevant nations. Something not going to happen anytime soon. If ever.  :L

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Too close for comfort?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:42 pm 
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"History is written by the Victors" ... IIRC, Napoleon said that ! :;):  For better or ill ! :)

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Tas
 Post subject: Too close for comfort?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:05 pm 
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And he was right L4: How many Russians were prosecuted for War crimes after WW2? They were easily as bad as the Germans in the field...




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dafrca
 Post subject: Too close for comfort?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:09 pm 
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Just to share a slight part of my world. My father served in WWII. We spoke about his experiances very little. I respected his having his own personal ghosts. It also changed how I see WWII games.

Funny thing is, I know I had family that fought in WWI, but because they are just names on paper, I do not have the same "reverance" for WWI.

Interesting how this seems to tie in well with what you guys are saying as well.

dafrca

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primarch
 Post subject: Too close for comfort?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:23 am 
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Quote (Tas @ 14 2005 June,12:05)
And he was right L4: How many Russians were prosecuted for War crimes after WW2? They were easily as bad as the Germans in the field...

Hi!

All too true. Had Hitler won then Stalin would have been the all time bad guy.

History is indeed written by the winners.

Primarch

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Markconz
 Post subject: Too close for comfort?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:28 am 
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I have to admit... I feel a little uncomfortable listening to some of the FOW discussions at the local club, and partly I think it is why I have avoided FOW so far. ?Especially as there may be WW2 vets in the bar/bowelling club etc in the next room. ?On the other hand many members of the club are, or have been in the military and served overseas.

I recently participated in an ultra-modern Iraqi game with Bradleys and M1s on one side and insurgents with pickups and RPG's on the other... only one person thought it was not a 'sick' thing to do in some way. As a lesson in what is happening it was valuable, but as a 'game' it felt wrong.




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Cuban Commissar
 Post subject: Too close for comfort?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:39 am 
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I agree completely with Dafrca,

Everytime I see miniatures invloving recent history I get a weird sensation; a small feeling that just says "That's not right."

I have a brother in Irag right now and I can never imagine playing a war game where my goal would be to "kill" the enemy, i.e US soldiers.

Yeck, I have a hard time playing Nappies in 1812 after reading all the horrors that happen on the road back from Moscow.  

I have a general question for all of you.  Does wargaming an era, even one has far back as Ancient Rome, cheapen the memory and tragedy of those wars?

Or does wargaming serve as a vehicle to keep that history alive and is a testiment to the memory of the soldiers who fought then.  

Dafrca (or anyone with a veterans as family, or any veterans here,

What would your father's impression be of the people who game Flames of War?  I'm just curoius on what his opnion would be.  


On a last note...

General Curtis "Bomb them into the stone ages" Lemay, was head of the Pacific Air Corp Forces in WWII and the originator of the fire bombing campaign against Japan.  He once said that if Japan had won the war he would have been tried as a warcriminal.
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MaksimSmelchak
 Post subject: Too close for comfort?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:39 am 
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Hi Guys,

Personally I don't have a problem with fighting as either side, but I still hold my opinions about a war.

I have fought in several conflicts and/or wars myself including Desert Storm, but that doesn't bother me.

My father fought in Vietnam and my grandfathers in Korea and WWII as well as the relatives who have fought in the Arab/Israeli conflict. For that matter I had a relative that fought in Cuba with Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders...

None of that bothers me, but...

What does bother me is terrorism and any game that panders to it...

Some guy early this year put an on-line game up for croawd control and had some pretty anti-Semitic scenarios on it...

That I thought was utter poo.

I also avoid playing the SS stuff from WWII, but don't mind playing against it as long as the rules put it in the right context... no neo-Nazis.

I've played or written scenarios for several battles from the Middle-East including the Jordanian Civil war and the Yemeni Civil War.

I guess what the sensitivity really revolves around is at what point it gets personal...

For me, the personal level is when it involves racism and anti-Semitism.

If all conflicts were about straight-forward combat over resources and power, I'd have an easier time with them.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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