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Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
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Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Thu Apr 17, 2003 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
I didn't want to think that GW would go as far as it has this time, but...

GW is cutting all Internet sales outside of the company. This effectively puts one of my favorite companies, HobbyWorkshop.com in the unemployed line of work.

I'm EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED in GW! ? ????

They're really working hard to earn their "Evil Empire" title. ?}:)

I don't know what else to say except I didn't think they'd go this far.

They're also cracking down on fan sites, closing down anyone who is threatening their "intellectual property." OS if you have any "GW-trademark" items on your site, get rid of them or you're going the way of the Dodo. This is stupidest thing in the world: kill the fan sites that support you???!!!!@@@##$$!!! It makes no sense. Bite the hand that feeds you?

I don't say this to spread rumors, but because this is now affecting people I know and it's past the rumor stage. It's true.

Anyone else have opinions to share?

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  signius [ Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
WTF?! You gotta be kidding me? Are they really that stupid as to kill off their only form of marketing? It's free advertising! This really sucks. I guess they want all the beans. I hardly purchased from them directly. Everyone else seemed to under sell them. It's too bad about hobbyworkshop. I frequent their site alot. Hell, I just bought something form them. I am too flustered for words. I can't even begin to describe the shock, anger and disbelief. Well, if they want to shoot themselves in the foot, let 'em. How is this going to affect us?
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
How is this going to affect us? - Signius


Signius,

I don't know how this is going to affect us other than the "Intellectual Property" issue. I hope this site won't close down. Several sites have already been closed down.

The Epic community is for the most part not a GW-supported community and I honestly think that E-A is going to "tank" (fail) now. Being that we're already "rebels" against the "Evil Empire," we'll just keep the resistance going. At any rate, I think I'm ready to convert 99.9% to NetEpic.

It's crazy. I know guys that spend hundreds of dollars every month on the game saying that they're done with GW, period. I predict a big drop in GW business in the short run. Unofrtunately, in the long run, I think they might make a come back since much of their busniess is in juvenile revolving fanboy purchases of people who come to and leave the hobby over a period of a few years. That's my opinion, at any rate, having observed several GW shops. ? ?

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.



Author:  Jimbo [ Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 17 2003 April,11:54)
GW is cutting all Internet sales outside of the company. This effectively puts one of my favorite companies, HobbyWorkshop.com in the unemployed line of work.

Maksim

source please - I can't find any of this in my usual places.

They're also cracking down on fan sites, closing down anyone who is threatening their "intellectual property." OS if you have any "GW-trademark" items on your site, get rid of them or you're going the way of the Dodo. This is stupidest thing in the world: kill the fan sites that support you???!!!!@@@##$$!!! It makes no sense. Bite the hand that feeds you?  - Maksim


This is not as stupid as it sounds, but see below too.

For example netepic were recently asked to remove the SM rules from their website, though they were posted their for the benefit of the gamers and netepic did not make any money out of it, why did GW ask them?

Well imagine if you can that GW let it go and allowed netepic to host the SM rules... okay

Also imagine if another company published the SM rules (taken from a purchased copy) and started to sell them for a profit.

As you might guess GW would take them to court for copyright infringement, however GW would lose the case, as it would be argued that GW wasn't interested in protecting their copyright (Exhibit A: netepic site) and therefore the SM rules were free to copy...

You must protect your copyright at all times... regardless of who is infringing the copyright  - even if (as you say) could have a possible negative effect!

I don't say this to spread rumors, but because this is now affecting people I know and it's past the rumor stage. It's true.

how do you know this is true...

There is nothing to be found about not using internet merchants for sales - does this mean they won't use amazon for their Black Library books???

I have seen no evidence of sites been closed down only asked to remove materials which they have no right to.

Facts please and sources, otherwise they are just rumours!

:cool:
Author:  Jimbo [ Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 17 2003 April,12:22)
How is this going to affect us? - Signius


Signius,

I don't know how this is going to affect us other than the "Intellectual Property" issue. I hope this site won't close down. Several sites have already been closed down.

URLs please

which actual sites have been closed down?

It's crazy. I know guys that spend hundreds of dollars every month on the game saying that they're done with GW, period. I predict a big drop in GW business in the short run. Unofrtunately, in the long run, I think they might make a come back since much of their busniess is in juvenile revolving fanboy purchases of people who come to and leave the hobby over a period of a few years. That's my opinion, at any rate having observed several GW shops. ? ?


I hear people saying this every year and they have been saying it for the last 15-20 years

This is hard fact - taken from the GW website regarding a question on GW's pricing policy

Games Workshop Pricing Policy

Greetings, I am a relatively new investor to the GW hobby. Obviously, it does quite
well. I am wondering about the pricing though. I have been to the GW stores, and the pricing seems quite high. Are there plans to raise or lower these prices in the future? I understand that the fan base is the lifeblood of this operation, but this base must not be alienated.

If prices are too high, I fear that many people will become alienated and quit the hobby, and many people will not even join it. Particularly younger children whose parents no doubt fund their Warhammer purchases, considering adult logic i.e.:" All this money for this little piece of metal". Good pricing is necessary for a new fan base.

However, lowering prices too much could very well cause the undesired effects of losing money, despite higher levels of customer happiness.  I would not recommend raising the prices much more, the gamers must have faith in Games workshop's commitment to them.

Tell me, what sort of financial overhead does GW have? Are the prices high
due to massive overhead costs? Or just to ensure good profits?
S.A. Ratzloff


You are right to say that if prices are too high people will be alienated. The fact that we have been recruiting new Hobbyists over many, many years, that we are seeing excellent growth around the world with good retention of hobbyists is pretty conclusive proof that they are not.  Making miniatures is not a simple process and so our R&D costs are high  - you?ll see plenty of detail on this in our financial report (on this web site).  Also, our miniatures are the best in the world and we believe in charging premium prices for our premium products and services.

What we are selling is a hobby ? not toys and not a pass-time.  Committed gamers and collectors and modellers know they get wonderful value for money from Games Workshop products.  Far better value, I suggest, than from similar amounts of money spent on meals out, sports events, boozy nights in the pub.  Go to the cinema and you can have an hour and a half of fun.  Buy Warhammer and you can enjoy it for the rest of your life! Tom


GW Talk to the CEO Tom Page
Author:  CyberShadow [ Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
I have been following this on the various email lists with great interest. It seems that it will only apply to the US - which is really funny - US web sites wont be able to sell stuff, but UK ones will, even to the US!

I think that this is so serious that it will never happen to this degree. I cant see how GW can stop web-based mail order. They cant stop people selling their stuff online (can they?), and they can only stop supplying it to the retailers.

This is going way too far. I was going to post this news on the EpicA boards to see if Jervis had any comments, but he probably likes it about as much as we do.

If this happens, I would seriously consider not buying GW in protest. Anyone else?
Author:  signius [ Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
Does this mean I would only be able to buy from the uk? That really sucks. I don't think I'll do it. It takes way too long to get here. GW also has one of the worst customer service programs I have ever encountered. I wasn't planning to buy EA anyway. Just another nail in the coffin. Dead before it hits the street. Sad, sad, sad. I seriously boubt that they would feel any pain from any boycotts. We are such a small group that I don't think we can make a difference. Besides, I don't think everyone would do it.
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Thu Apr 17, 2003 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
Jimbo,

- Hobbyworkshop.com will be soon closing.

- Warstore.com will be switching directly to phone and mail order rather than Internet sales.

Most of my information is directly from the owners and customers' mouths so I can't provide you with a link or communique. GW also doesn't publish all of its' business policies publicly.

As far as "intellectual property" goes, I'll concede that, noone has ACTUALLY closed yet, but they've received notice to remove materials or close. For many fan sites, dedicated to GW games, removing GW "intellectual property" is tantemount to closing them. Look at what has been happening to NetEpic over the years. That's real. I've watched that website and game project change much over their years from the old Bourbon Street address to the current one.

I'll post more as I get it. I watched some guys at my shop use the Internet browsing the sites and E-mailing the owners (many of us know each other). This is from the site owners' mouths and I'll ask them before I post their names.

As far as players leave the hobby, I'll ask some of my friends before I post names. Bill Edwards, the owner, of Hobby Workshop is pulling out of the Top10club, a club for the top 10 most competitive GW-Fantasy players in the world. So are quite a few others who we know since they buy from HobbyWorkshop.com and play there too.

----------------------------------

Jimbo,

I know this is true because I've been speaking with the people most affected, the Internet retaillers whom I know and some of the Fantasy players whom I also know whose names appear in the GT logs of fantasy games across the world (Australia, US, UK GTs).

Regarding all internet sales, I think they're just shutting down the folks that sell the miniatures and rulesets by Internet. Normal store counter, phone, or mail sales will persist. Retail sales of products other than miniatures such as books will continue to my admittedly limited knowledge.

I can understand your skepticism and am glad you are asking the right questions.

I think the best way to support my words is to say "watch what happens to Internet retaillers in the next two months or so." I'm sure they'll start posting their new and changed policies soon.

I'd also ask you to put a little faith in me since I've never been a rumormonger and I'll happily stand corrected if, in any way, it turns out I'm wrong. I've also been a dedicated Epic fan for along time and have contributed to the hobby many times. I'd rather see GW become a more concerned company and support my game, Epic, again rather than take a "corporate" route to success.

Then again, maybe I'm just becoming an angry old fart (alter kocher in Yiddish)? ?:laugh:

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Thu Apr 17, 2003 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
I have been following this on the various E-mail lists with great interest. It seems that it will only apply to the US - which is really funny - US web sites won't be able to sell stuff, but UK ones will, even to the US!

I think that this is so serious that it will never happen to this degree. I can't see how GW can stop web-based mail order. They can't stop people selling their stuff online (can they?), and they can only stop supplying it to the retailers.

This is going way too far. I was going to post this news on the EpicA boards to see if Jervis had any comments, but he probably likes it about as much as we do.

If this happens, I would seriously consider not buying GW in protest. Anyone else? - CyberShadow


They can't stop all second-hand sales (E-bay for instance), but they can cut off retail suppliers by refusing to supply them with new product. Hard to be a GW shop without GW product.

GW, to my understanding, has told all Internet sales retaillers and suppliers that anyone sellling GW miniatures over the Inrenet will not be supplied with product. If you are a retailler and you ignore that, GW stops shipping to your supplier and then takes legal action against you.  

I'm considering also stopping my GW purchases, but I've never been that great a customer for GW anyway after they stopped supporting Epic. Epic's the only GW game that I'm really crazy about. Plus, I don't want to miss out on any new E-A miniatures if they come out. I'll buy the new minis and even the new game, but I won't support the company any further than that. That's my optimism too. Support my game and I'll support you by voting with my hard currency.

Not supporting GW-Fantasy or 40k won't be hard for me. I already don't like the general communities they support. They're too overrated.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  CyberShadow [ Thu Apr 17, 2003 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
OK. You want the truth? You cant handle the truth!

Message from the Warstore

Dakka discusion on same

Hope that this helps.
Author:  Chris [ Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
Wait, whats this on Dakka about a handful of selected images? Is that what I think it means. No more galleries on the internet of GW models. Will De'Aynes (Epic and BFG) die?? I sure hope not.

Also, what does this mean for Tom's online store over at epicentre?

They are trying to monopolyse the market. This is a bad move and I am sure they will see a drop in custom.

Cheers

Chris
Author:  CyberShadow [ Thu Apr 17, 2003 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
I think that is a little over-reacting by a few people. The IP issues, as far as I can tell, will be no worse than they are now, but GW will simply be going after those who break the regulations a little more actively.

The galleries should not be challenged. If I buy a car, I am allowed to place pictures of it on the web. If there is a picture of me on the web, the manufacturers of the jeans that I am wearing cannot ban the picture because their product is in it. If I buy the mini, it belongs to me, and so I can post pictures of it.

The thing about 'previews' and rumour pictures also should
not be a problem in the main. If GW take their minis out to, for example Salute, that is them taking products to an open forum. They cant then stop pictures appearing, since if they were worried about that, they should not display them at all.

Using GW artwork might be a problem, but then it always was. Using GW registered names should be fine, if they are recognised and no challenge to the trademark is implied (see my copyright notice for an example).

I think that the whole IP problem was a very thin attampt by GW to justify them cracking down on internet Mail Order - which they may be doing basically so they can dictate price (as far as I can see).

I think that the EpiCenter store will be the hardest hit around these parts. It may have to stay as it is now, with Void only.
Author:  Jimbo [ Thu Apr 17, 2003 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
okay

I'll accept the warstore story as possible "fact" - none of this is mentioned on the warstore site and the e-mail used on the usenet posting is not the one on the website. We'' see what happens July 15th...

Maksim

You said in one posting

I don't know how this is going to affect us other than the "Intellectual Property" issue. I hope this site won't close down. Several sites have already been closed down.


You now say

As far as "intellectual property" goes, I'll concede that, noone has ACTUALLY closed yet, but they've received notice to remove materials or close.

Which one is fact, which one is a rumour?

As for asking them to remove materials, I don't actually see why that is wrong? I probably don't think it's wrong as I have done it myself on numerous occassions to stop people putting my pictures on their websites, as people use my images (and in some cases my bandwidth) quite a bit.

Don't take my asking the question as having "a go at you", it's not, it's just that the reality is somewhat different to what is been spread about the internet.

also

For many fan sites, dedicated to GW games, removing GW "intellectual property" is tantemount to closing them. Look at what has been happening to NetEpic over the years.

IMHO a site full of GW IP is not a fan site...

netepic can stand on its own two feet without GW IP on the site

a analogy, a "fan" site to Avril Lavigne, which consisted solely of copyrighted images and mp3s of her music woudl be closed down

a fan site with a community and photos taken at her gigs is in my mind a fan site

No one has to play GW's games, no one has to use theif figures, you have the choice.

GW has the choice to whom they sell and can choose who sells their products - we may not like it, but they do have a choice.

Chris, as for

Wait, whats this on Dakka about a handful of selected images? Is that what I think it means. No more galleries on the internet of GW models. Will De'Aynes (Epic and BFG) die?? I sure hope not.


this is not what that means, as the images on my website for example are my IP, I own the copyright to those images. What GW are referring to are images they own the IP for and hold the copyright.

For example the images I have let you use in De'Aynes of my miniatures (and all the images on my website) are my IP and I hold the copyright. The images on the GW website are their IP and they can ask other websites which are illegally using them to remove them.

as for

They are trying to monopolyse the market. This is a bad move and I am sure they will see a drop in custom.

they already have a monopoly. GW sales exceed the rest of the gaming market by (who knows) but I guess by a factor of 10 or more...

they won't see a drop in custom as most people will not drop out of gaming (they'll be pissed, but continue to game) and most people will accept it all

okay listen up everyone

I know my opinion of this is different to yours, probably due to the years I have been gaming and playing (and not playing) GW.

I left the GW hobby back in the 1990s as I didn't like the way they were going - in other words I voted with my feet and my money and GZG, Alternative Armies and others got my pennies then! I got back because of Epic40K - but I have a business background, I know about IP and I know about marketing.

If you don't like what GW are doing, tell them, but tell them from a customer point of view.

stay cool

:cool:
Author:  Legion 4 [ Thu Apr 17, 2003 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
More arcane skullduggery by the G/W Epic crew ?! :o  What a surprise ?!   I just hope E-A sales are good enough so I can get my hands on all those (proposed) new models ... ???
Author:  Chris [ Thu Apr 17, 2003 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Rumor's true. GW to screw Internet businesses
Damn don't I feel stupid. I totally misunderstud the images thing. Thanks for clearing that up.

Cheers

Chris
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