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MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=1742		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Wed Jul 30, 2003 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
Ok, for a couple of years I have had this insane dream of converting Epic to Modern Spear Head (MSH) rules so I could fight REALLY big battles with a couple of regiments' worth of stuff on both sides.

The big question is: has anybody here played MSH?

I'd like to hear experienced players' comments on the problems I've encountered. Problems like Ork organization, Space Marine morale, the BIG stuff (Superheavies, Praetorians, Titans...) etc. The Spear Head system is wonderfully streamlined and playable, yet still detailed, and I'd like not to ruin it by cluttering it with excessive special rules.
Author:  Tas [ Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
I've only played WW2 sopearhead and thought they were a greats et of rules. Very playable, the real flavour of the different armies was in the way they played rather than their orgs- the initiative and activation mechanism I thought was fast, effective and very playable.

I think such a conversion would be great! ?

Real macro scale Epic games!
Author:  primarch [ Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
Hi!

Wow! Interesting thread!

I own those rules, as well as the WW2 ones, but I have not tried them yet (lack of players as usual). There are similarities but also big differences, especially since in modern combat things like jets and helicopters make a big impact. However I think the modern rules cover most what's in the 40k universe better than the WW2 ruleset. The only stumbling block is perhaps titans, but I think we can work around that somehow.

I must warn you Mojarn, I am feeling an urge to jump in and do this conversion...Be warned if I do I will haunt you implacably until its done.

Be careful what you wish for... :p

Primarch
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
Quote (primarch @ 30 2003 July,18:18)
Be careful what you wish for... :p

Primarch

Hi!

Wow! Interesting thread!

I own those rules, as well as the WW2 ones, but I have not tried them yet (lack of players as usual). There are similarities but also big differences, especially since in modern combat things like jets and helicopters make a big impact. However I think the modern rules cover most what's in the 40k universe better than the WW2 ruleset. The only stumbling block is perhaps titans, but I think we can work around that somehow.


The main problem is that a Titan can take more punishment than a tank platoon, hence I think a "damage" stat is unavoidable. Superheavies are OK as is, since the basic unit in MSH is a platoon. This means that a single SH tank has the same firepower as a platoon of lesser tanks and it takes the same amount of FP to kill it.

I must warn you Mojarn, I am feeling an urge to jump in and do this conversion...Be warned if I do I will haunt you implacably until its done.


Well, I am out of armylist ideas right now, I have unpacked all my gaming stuff and generally settled down in our new home. It might be the right time to take this project out of the back burner. However, it took me the best part of a year to whack together the Exodite armylist for Net Epic (with help from Nils, of course) so I don't think this will go any faster.  :cool:
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Fri Aug 01, 2003 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
Mojarn,

The big question is: has anybody here played MSH?


Yes. MSH is big in my neck of the woods. I'm not overly fond of it. The basing standards can be very clunky and the game can be overly generic as Epic40k was/is.

I would not be a great advocate of an MSH/Epic crossover for the previously stated reasons.

Having said that, MSH is a great rule system and runs very smoothly. Maybe I'm too used to the clunky properties of Epic, but I find MSH to be bland, robotic, and just not that much fun at times.

I think that the older Epic rules work great for modern or W.W.II crossovers.

The biggest MSH idea that Epic could benefit from is the switch to the D10 or D20, which would greatly improve the game. I hate being stuck with D6 (rough 16% brackets) probabilities.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  primarch [ Sun Aug 03, 2003 3:52 am ]
Post subject:  MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
Hi!


The biggest MSH idea that Epic could benefit from is the switch to the D10 or D20, which would greatly improve the game. I hate being stuck with D6 (rough 16% brackets) probabilities.


Many on the netepic list would agree with you, and I think someone actually may have come up with a conversion for SM into d10's.

Thats why I decided to make Heresy in d10, d6's are too restrictive.

Primarch
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 01 2003 Aug.,16:39)

Mojarn,

The big question is: has anybody here played MSH?


Yes. MSH is big in my neck of the woods. I'm not overly fond of it. The basing standards can be very clunky and the game can be overly generic as Epic40k was/is.

I disagree on this. There's plenty of variation in the units and the command & fire priority system is really great at taking away the "God's knowledge" a tabletop wargamer has. I do agree there has been some abstraction, but at divisional scale it's a necessary evil.

As for the basing, what's "clunky" about it?

I would not be a great advocate of an MSH/Epic crossover for the previously stated reasons.

Having said that, MSH is a great rule system and runs very smoothly. Maybe I'm too used to the clunky properties of Epic, but I find MSH to be bland, robotic, and just not that much fun at times.

I think that the older Epic rules work great for modern or W.W.II crossovers.

You mean SM1? Nearly any game can be converted to any other. However, the armor system of ANY epic game does not allow much variation.


The biggest MSH idea that Epic could benefit from is the switch to the D10 or D20, which would greatly improve the game. I hate being stuck with D6 (rough 16% brackets) probabilities.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

MSH uses d6  :(
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
Status update.

I don't think there will be too many problems in the conversion.

Titans/Praetorians must have a damage stat to see how many t?mes they have to be "killed"; I really can't see any other way to handle it.

Tyranids are a bit of a problem, but it's really not that bad. Thing is, the basic idea of their behavior is the same as all other troops. Namely, they lose commanders -> they start to act in disorganised manner. The difference is _what_ they do after the link to hive mind is broken.
Author:  primarch [ Tue Aug 12, 2003 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
Hi!

I'm a little short on time for now Mojarn, but we can get together latter and brainstorm what is needed to make a conversion.

By the way you ever finished those rules for WWII, epic style?

Was that even you? :)

Primarch
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Wed Aug 13, 2003 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
Quote (primarch @ 12 2003 Aug.,22:10)
Hi!

I'm a little short on time for now Mojarn, but we can get together latter and brainstorm what is needed to make a conversion.

Cool! In the meantime I'll do my own private brainstorming.

By the way you ever finished those rules for WWII, epic style?

Was that even you? :)

Primarch


Yes and no. Meaning our little Weasel was the one to propose those rules, but I was involved as long as the discussion went on.

And no, to my knowledge the rules were never finished.  :( Maybe I should do something about it...

Advanced Net Epic is also proceeding erratically. That means whenever I get an idea I write it down but the work is mostly done in a background process residing in my subconsciousness. It surfaces every now and then when it can steal some priority.  :p
Author:  primarch [ Wed Aug 13, 2003 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
Hi!

I try to re-read MSH so as to re-familiarize myself with the rules, hopefully we can get into it at some point soon.

WWII epic, I think we should resurrect it. I feel it only needs army lists since it would use the standard epic rules, perhaps with minor tailoring.

Advanced epic? What was that about?

Primarch
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Thu Aug 14, 2003 8:20 am ]
Post subject:  MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
Quote (primarch @ 13 2003 Aug.,14:15)

Hi!

I try to re-read MSH so as to re-familiarize myself with the rules, hopefully we can get into it at some point soon.


Excellent! I've almost read through the rules and will start thinking about army lists soon.


WWII epic, I think we should resurrect it. I feel it only needs army lists since it would use the standard epic rules, perhaps with minor tailoring.

The main problem is the vehicle armor. d6 doesn't offer too much variation; if the scale is from 1 (Maus, E-100) to 6 (Mk VI, Pz I) there may be some problems for a detail freak like me.


Advanced epic? What was that about?

Primarch


Hehe, it is my pet threat. It is also known as DetEpic (as in Detailed Epic). Every time my detailed rule propositions won't get accepted I threaten people with Advanced Epic.  :;):

Problem is, after all the rule tweaks and additions it won't resemble Epic much at all and it still isn't nearly as good as Heresy. Oh well, at least it's my own... :blues:
Author:  Tas [ Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 14 2003 Aug.,17:20)
The main problem is the vehicle armor. d6 doesn't offer too much variation; if the scale is from 1 (Maus, E-100) to 6 (Mk VI, Pz I) there may be some problems for a detail freak like me.

Although it wont overcome the problem entirely, maybe an intermediate scale set of rules like GDW's Command Descision would be better used as the basis for your crossover rules?  I always found those to be quite a decent set
Author:  Legion 4 [ Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
That is always the conundrum ... detail vs. too much detail vs. playability vs. just being a good/fun game ... ???
Author:  primarch [ Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:12 am ]
Post subject:  MSH/Epic Crossover Game Ideas? - Hammer Head
Hi!

Mojarn, would making it d10 based be too hard? The one desicion I made early on with Heresy was to get a way from the narrow probability of the d6 GW games force you into.

Primarch
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