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Hey L4 and Javelin98
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=13556		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Otterman [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Hey L4 and Javelin98
Would someone with tankity knowledge tell me about bogeys? Specifically, in this piece of artwork, what's up with the overlapping bogeys? Is such a thing possible? If so, why is it desirable? Or did the draftsman just do it because it looked good?
Author:  asaura [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Hey L4 and Javelin98
It's a reference to WWII German tanks and halftracks, notably the Tiger and the Panther.

I don't believe it's desirable. This article has good pics:
See http://www.alanhamby.com/suspension.shtml
Author:  Dave [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Hey L4 and Javelin98
Seems to me that the chance of damaging more than one increases when they overlap.
Author:  Otterman [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Hey L4 and Javelin98
Ah, thanks. I'll look at some of my GHQ Tigers and see if the cool-effect overcomes my reluctance to 3D model it.
Author:  javelin98 [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Hey L4 and Javelin98
Yeah, the Germans did that back in WWII, and I believe it was because of the limited suspension technology available at the time;  this allowed them to fit more axles on a chassis, which would probably reduce ground pressure and also give the tank a smoother ride (pretty important for gunnery while moving).  

On the downside, you would have a track that was shimmying slightly side to side, which could cause problems at higher speeds, and if you had to change out a road wheel that was on the inside, you'd have to remove the two over top of it, adding quite a bit of time and effort to an already-onerous task.  Not to mention, if an inside road wheel was badly damaged enough to come off the hub, then it could potentially destroy two other road wheels on its way to freedom.  I've witnessed an Abrams lose a road wheel while doing about 45 MPH and the resultant throwing-track mess wasn't pretty, but at least they only had to swap out a single one.  

I suppose you might also have problems with debris getting caught between the road wheels.  My M113 once caught a rock in between a road wheel and a shock, and the rock chewed away at the (aluminum) road wheel until it had cut the rim off the hub just like a giant can opener.  So, if the overlapping road wheels caught enough debris between them, they might chew each other to pieces, especially on an extended road march.  I can't imagine how well the German panzers fared on the Russian front during the winter, with all that frozen mud and whatnot to contend with.

I like that overall design you posted, though;  kind of reminds me of a Merkava.  I'd say go for it;  overlapping bogeys can't be any sillier than a lot of the 40K ideas we see!
Author:  Lion in the Stars [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Hey L4 and Javelin98
A similar suspension design is used on BOLOs in some fiction.  Other BOLOs have bogied roadwheels.

Its a pain to maintain, but does lead to better ride (with more suspension arms, you can use softer torsion bars and get the same total spring pressure).

It's worth noting that nobody uses that suspension design anymore, though.
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Hey L4 and Javelin98
Quote: (javelin98 @ 17 Sep. 2008, 17:35 )

Yeah, the Germans did that back in WWII, and I believe it was because of the limited suspension technology available at the time;  this allowed them to fit more axles on a chassis, which would probably reduce ground pressure and also give the tank a smoother ride (pretty important for gunnery while moving).  

Oddly enough, this is one area where American WWII armor was superior to German armor. I've heard that Shermans, especially the Easy 8, had a significantly smoother ride than German armor. Combined with gyrostabilizers, Shermans were much better at firing on the move than their German counterparts. Russian armor also had relatively smooth rides, thanks to the Russkies buying the rights to Mr. Christie's chassis design.
Author:  Otterman [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Hey L4 and Javelin98
I did some bogey designs appropriate for this concept artwork (from a Japanese game called "Nectaris" and known by its US name as "Military Madness", discussed in other topics) and scaled for 6mm tank fun.

There are minimum layer sizes, and I just couldn't get a double row of bogeys in the volume concerned. I might be able to "fake" the inner layer.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Hey L4 and Javelin98
Wow, sorry I missed out on all the fun ! Good answers Boyz !  Bottom line, I'd say go for the Christie  design. As D/S mentioned. For all the reasons mentioned here. The Germans had a tendancy to over-engineer things that really didn't need to be(the toggle on the Luger !?!?) ... My experience with M113s, M60s, M1s, etc., there is really no need for overlapping bogey wheels, like the both versions of the Tiger and Panther (Built numerous scales of these tanks in my youth. Building the model's suspension was a pain in the butt !!!) And after being a Bn then Bde BMO and Mech Co Cdr ... I would think that the overlapping double bogey system would be a frakk'n nightmare to maintain. The more moving parts, the more chance of something breaking ... and it usually does ... :)
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