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When does an action become "Gamey"

 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:38 am 
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Warfare down the ages can be thought of in terms of an extreme form of competition - the winner usually living, the loser frequently dying. Because of its nature there have been numerous attempts to "even up the odds" whether by better equipment or training, or by adopting better techniques. Often this is done to gain some advantage or neutralise an opponent?s strengths. Think of WWI "Q" ships or commerce raiders, who pretend to be unarmed; Pirates sailing under a "neutral" flag; Red Indians or Guerrillas 'hit & run' raids or the Viet-cong bunker system etc. However, these innovations have often been referred to by their opponents as "dishonourable"- consider the French knights of Welsh archers at Agincourt; Samurai of the firearms used in C15 and C16; the British of Boer guerrilla warfare; Submarine warfare as a whole; WWI gas attacks or the WWII Atom bomb etc. So, in real life, what is viewed by on side as a legitimate "ruse de guerre", may be viewed by the other as "dishonourable" or vile - or cheating.

Of necessity, wargame rules reduce battles to formation capabilities and process. In doing so, while it can include quantifiable technical innovations, quite often it removes the battlefield perception of the protagonists, one of whom feigns or pretends to be something other than what he is to gain some advantage or neutralise an opponent's strengths - in other words he cheats. So:-

  1)   Is it possible to recreate battlefield perceptions within the wargame context?
  2)   When does one player's actions become 'beardy' or cheating in the eyes of another?
  3)   Should this be encouraged (within reason) or discouraged, and how??

For example, in a naval game, one player with a limited number of torpedoes and reloads announces torpedo attacks and goes through the process in the rules. However, he secretly records which are real or fake (which is not part of the rules), using this to instil a degree of apprehension in the opponent who modifies his actions accordingly.
 - Is this fair, because he is recording his actions and creating a form of "battlefield perception".
 - Is this "gamesmanship" because he is bending the rules; this kind of activity was neither spelt out in the rules, nor prohibited.
 - Or is this cheating because he is playing outside the letter of the rules?

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 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:42 am 
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I think first of all this should be a rule in a gaming group. That means that everyone is aware you are allowed to 'cheat'. If you play someone you don't know he is probably gonna walk away if you pull a 'stunt' like that.
Downside is that the game turns into a cheating fest?

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 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:06 pm 
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The downside is, gameyness increases what I call the 'metagame', which is the game of lies and exploitations of rules loopholes that happens between the players, independent of the wargame they're playing.

Personally, I prefer wargames that come as close to a simulation mechanism as possible, where all moves in the game occur on the tabletop, and everything is plainly visible.

In this manner, Chess can be termed a simulation style game that lacks metagame elements.

Thus the winner of the game in the end is the player who picked the best army list (Strategy), pulled off the best manuevers in-game (Tactics), and maybe had a little help from female dice (Lady Luck).

The winner should not the guy who knows the most unrealistic rules exploits ("My planes will fly into the centre of your formation and stop in front of your Supreme Commander!"), but the guy who has the most raw skill, and doesn't need to rely on gamey exploits.

Epic, I believe, was always intended to be closer to a simulation style wargame than a cartoon-esque wargame, like Warhammer 40k. (Note that even W40k has moved away from gameyness in recent years)

Furthermore, the army lists were intended to be balanced against each other for 'blind' play without the help of gamey concealments; Gameyness only distorts the apparent affectiveness of army lists and makes the job of army list balancing all the harder (IE: Marines might appear awesome if they can swap their Rhinos for Pods before each game, but only in a Tournament environment... in a regular gaming environment (99.9% of games), they'd continue to be sub-standard).

This is not Warhammer 40k (Which contains Strategy and Luck, but few Tactics), this is EPIC.





  1)   Is it possible to recreate battlefield perceptions within the wargame context?


Yes, but they should be represented on the tabletop, independent of the Metagame.

 2)   When does one player's actions become 'beardy' or cheating in the eyes of another?

When the rules are unrealisticly exploited to gain advantage against the original spirit in which the rules were written.

This is entirely subjective, but an example might be:

- Using the now-defunct experimental hit allocation rules to apply three MW hits to one base of Terminators, and two normal hits to another base of Terminators. The odds are then, independent of on-board movement or shooting, quickly skewed in favour of one base surviving, instead of both dying.


 3)   Should this be encouraged (within reason) or discouraged, and how??

If a game system includes gameyness as a core concept, then it should be encouraged. Epic, I believe, is antithetical to gameyness.





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 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:16 pm 
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This is something that I have had a strong interest in for a while. I am interested in the Warring State period of China, and they had an expression that you should never glorify a commander. A great battle commander only goes into batle when he knows that he will win, and therefore victory is ensured. Only a poor commander goes into battle against the odds and sometimes manages a 'heroic' performance. The ancient Chinese believed totally in underhand tactics, and there are no rules in warfare.

I would love a game to include this, but it would be a totally different experience to a 'standard' wargame, and I am not even sure that it is possible.

On a theoretical level, there was an example of a commander in a siege who was out-numbered and out of arrows. He lowered straw men over the side of the castle at night. The enemy shot at them, the arrows stuck in, and he recalled the straw men and collected the arrows. How do you model that?

We dont necessarily play a wargame to 'win'. While that may be a large part of it, we actually play to test ourselves most of the time. I could remove an enemy commander when the player wasnt looking, and say that he had been assassinated, but that wouldnt help me to test myself, even if it helps me win.

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 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:21 pm 
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Aye, it's winning within the bounds of a scenario that is obvious to both parties that is the greatest test of skill.

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 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:19 pm 
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Gamey maneuvers is such a difficult thing to define.  For me most of the time something just 'feels' wrong and while I could quote some specifics as of late, to generalize them would be difficult (at least for me).

But there is a level of creativity that can be put into your games that pushes the boundaries.  A classic example is in Axis & Allies when you build up a fleet of ships.  Instead of adding a couple of battleships to help your lone carrier, you add 6 transports, ensuring that the wave of fighters that are going to attack will not get at your precious carrier.

Now this isn't realistic and being that the game is a simulation environment people might consider that to be gamey, but it is certainly within the rules and tactically a creative way of playing the game.

In Epic, barging with an Ork Landa strikes me as a bizarre concept since nobody ever 'barges' anything with something that flies (not enough mass, armor, etc), yet it is allowed by the rules and a creative way to conduct an assaulti n some cases.  So there are ways of simulating these battlefield exploits without bending the rules.

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 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:13 pm 
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(CyberShadow @ Oct. 25 2007,11:16)
QUOTE
This is something that I have had a strong interest in for a while. I am interested in the Warring State period of China, and they had an expression that you should never glorify a commander. A great battle commander only goes into batle when he knows that he will win, and therefore victory is ensured. Only a poor commander goes into battle against the odds and sometimes manages a 'heroic' performance. The ancient Chinese believed totally in underhand tactics, and there are no rules in warfare.

I would love a game to include this, but it would be a totally different experience to a 'standard' wargame, and I am not even sure that it is possible.

The new DBMM rules includes all such things that were used historically in field battles.

Ie dressing civilians up as soldiers to make your army look bigger, hidden pits, dragging brush behind your cavalry to make bigger dust clouds to confuse the enemy. That sort of stuff. They are called strategems, and they can be used in competition games if you pay the points.

The competition games are limited to field battles (which can included storming of fortifications, though not the more drawn out supply attrition problems your other example refers to, that's more a campaign rather than a battle detail).

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 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:17 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Oct. 25 2007,12:19)
QUOTE
In Epic, barging with an Ork Landa strikes me as a bizarre concept since nobody ever 'barges' anything with something that flies (not enough mass, armor, etc),

You're really not accustomed to the ork way of thinking are you... ? :p  :;):   It always made perfect sense to me that you would land directly on top of something with a Landa if possible...  :D

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 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:49 pm 
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I suppose I should rethink my Orky strategies.  But technically Eldar can do this too with a Vampire Raider.  Those things are made out of aluminum foil and elvish space gum!

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 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:32 pm 

(Moscovian @ Oct. 25 2007,08:49)
QUOTE
I suppose I should rethink my Orky strategies. ?But technically Eldar can do this too with a Vampire Raider. ?Those things are made out of aluminum foil and elvish space gum!

Well, yeah, but isn't it old, dried-out space gum?


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 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:13 pm 
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'Battlefield perception' to my mind is essentially a state of limited knowledge or ignorance of some pertinent facts, which tends to fall outside the realms of the chess like wargames so often played. Some of this can be introduced quite easily, for example setting up formations one at a time to simulate the order that they arrive, or using formation markers and dummies until the opponent satisfies some visibility conditions. I still have "Search and Destroy" an old SPI board game where the Viet-cong pieces are played inverted - a really great mechanism to model the limited US knowledge.

Obviously, another mechanic might be for an umpire to provide certain additional information to individual players, or perhaps using playing cards drawn from a complete deck by players to represent some special ability (all affected units being noted in secret before the game starts) :-
? ? Any Jack:- ? ? one unit has improved armour, decrease the effect of damage
? ? Any Queen:- one unit has improved weapons, increase the effect of damage
? ? Any King:- ? ? one unit deployed is actually disguised and replaced with the correct unit when it attacks or is attacked,
? ? Any Ace:- ? ? ?one additional unit is off table, available after a given point
? ? Any Joker:- ? one enemy unit is neutral and will only fight for either side upon particular conditions being fulfilled.

Now for something more controversial. While I think we can agree that nudging pieces or stretching measurements are definitely cheating, and "distracting" the opponent or playing psychological tricks is questionable at least, how far should/could one go within the spirit of the rules - and is it appropriate (in the right circumstances of course). For example ?:-
?- Camouflaged units being hidden behind tabletop terrain.
?- Objective markers mascarading as 'damaged' units.
?- Other items being legitimately left on the table that resemble objectives.

Regarding 'metagaming', even the world of chess is not immune. E&C may be unaware of the 1972 chess world championship between Spassky and Fischer notorious for the extreme 'metagaming' aspects including Fischer
?- not appearing for the opening ceremony
?- banning television cameras
?- demanding 30% revenue from the spectators
?- forfeiting game 2 when he lost game 1
?- playing unexpected openings
?- Both players rocking back and forth in their chairs to distract the other
?- Russian claims over the use of 'electronic and chemical devices' to control Spassky.?etc.
(Fischer went on to win 12.5 - 8.5 in the 24 game match, and then effectively withdrew from competitive chess, playing a "revenge" match 20 years later in 1992.)

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 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:34 pm 
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setting up formations one at a time to simulate the order that they arrive

I believe that's a game balance mechanism, rather than a simulation mechanism.

using formation markers and dummies until the opponent satisfies some visibility conditions.
I'd love to play a wargame that included this, except neither player was allowed to see the enemy's tokens, but a third party umpire could see both tables, and ... you get the idea. :)

- Camouflaged units being hidden behind tabletop terrain.
Not cheating, because you state what they are when they're placed on the table... they're just painted nicely and unless your opponent is particularly forgetful then he knows they're there.

- Objective markers mascarading as 'damaged' units.

Again, unless there's intentional obfuscation going on, this is just little dioramas representing units, and is not cheating.

- Other items being legitimately left on the table that resemble objectives.

Which are scenery pieces... objective markers again must be deliniated when placed, so there's no problem here.


E&C may be unaware of the 1972 chess world championship
I admit to not being alive at that particular moment. :D

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 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:43 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Oct. 25 2007,08:19)
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Gamey maneuvers is such a difficult thing to define.  For me most of the time something just 'feels' wrong

That's pretty much how I feel, also. I prefer, if not expect, my opponent to play within the spirit of the rules, which of course can be hard to define as well. This is typically when cheesy things happen. I tend to believe that if the rules don't specifically say that you can do something, then you can't do it.

To make matters worse, I think there is sometimes a fine line between playing cleverly (bending the rulers) and cheating. I have played games in the past where cheating was built into the rules, but these were silly, fun games, not wargames. That's not to say that wargames aren't meant to be fun.  :p

For wargames in general it's difficult to do a really good job of simulating the "fog of war".

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 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:47 pm 
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Just like with "cheesy" or "beardy," it's all perception.

For me, much like what E&C said, it's when the metagame aspects intrude on game play.  There is an unavoidable level of "playing the rules" in any wargame but rule mechanisms should be overshadowed by general "real world" tactical considerations.  Concepts of mass, maneuver, and firepower should be more important than the interplay and application of rules.

When you cross that line, you're getting into the realm of being "gamey."

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 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:15 pm 
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The best system I know of for simulating fog of war is a three room, three table, three people approach.  I've never used it but seen it done:

The two players are separated in different rooms and can only see their own table.  The third person is the referee or games master who not only has access to both the players' rooms and tables but maintains a third table which is the 'master'.

The referee only allows players to see certain units on their own table. Usually this is their own forces and the enemy units that could reasonably be exposed to view of the player's troops.  Sometimes the referee could chose to hide a players own units from sight such as scouting units, reserves, allies and the like and may even place units incorrectly.  This gives each player a view of the engagement that closely replicates what they, as a real life commander, would have.

Obviously this requires two cooperative players and an experienced referee, not to mention three rooms, three tables, three sets of terrain and six armies(!) so it's not that practical.

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