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Helicopters and real life
alansa
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:28 pm 
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The answer lies in the difference between a helicopter, a fixed wing aircraft, and a ground vehicle. What can a helicopter do that the others can't?

The Vulture (to my mind) is intented to be a model of the Apache Gunship

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vanvlak
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:30 pm 
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I have never meen in any military force, but modern helicopters tend to hover behind cover, locate the tank, get a fix, preferably with a mast-mounted sight (on top of the rotor - this would be the only bit of helicopter not behind cover!), pop-up and launch the missiles. Or launch around cover without even popping up.
And watch out for those aeroplanes - or the Kamov Hokum!

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:47 pm 
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My knowledge mostly comes from other wargames, but Helicopters are fairly fragile in an open fight, and dont last long. They are often a 'short range artillery' unit, as vanvlak say popping over the treeline to launch anti-tank strikes.

Others are a transport. That said, in the right conditions, the helicopter can be a very powerful strike asset, as a static, highly mobile, launch platform.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:26 pm 
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I would put Vultures as more analogous to Harrier Jump Jets* than Helicopter Gunships.

However in game terms, they do operate as helicopters.



* Heck, a Vulture is just a more angular version of the 2-seat Harrier trainer configurations with a raised twin tail boom!

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alansa
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:43 pm 
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Well it might have directional jets like a harrier, but it behaves like a gunship, and that's the intention.

I suppose if you had a harrier in epic it would be a sort of dual mode unit.

AV skimmer OR Aircraft (you choose at deployment time!)

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Irondeath
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:32 pm 
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I googled some stuff that you might find interesting:



Hellfire on Wikipedia

Max range is given as 8km.

Hellfire on fas.org

Some interesting stuff on firing tactics here.



Hellfire article

is even more in-depth.


With regards to E:A, I?ve stated before that using the Hellfire as a guideline means a range of 120cm is way too long.



The leverage of technology: the evolution of armed helicopters in Vietnam

Slightly qff-topic, but an interesting read.

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alansa
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:20 pm 
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yep:

the way it should work is:

1) the vulture should still be required to approach it's target (using plenty of cover), then pop up and fire. 120cm is not conducive encourage this

2) The hellfire range should be just greater than the effective range of its targets. such that the vulture does not unduly put itself in too much danger when it pops up.
The range should be 60cm.  90 at most.

In fact, my opinion is that no weapon should have a range greater than 90cm, (except when doubling for indirect fire)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:52 pm 
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(alansa @ Sep. 26 2007,15:43)
QUOTE
Well it might have directional jets like a harrier, but it behaves like a gunship, and that's the intention.

I suppose if you had a harrier in epic it would be a sort of dual mode unit.

AV skimmer OR Aircraft (you choose at deployment time!)

I own the 40k scale model... it has a huge rear engine, if treated in a fully realistic manner it should have the dual mode of operation that you suggest.

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rpr
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:52 am 
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Helicopters are nice - providing your side has air superiority. If not, they do not last long.
However, in Epic, skimmers are not easier target to aircraft than ground based units..

So I would think Vultures like Falcons and similar, not think how helicopters work,
and would not give them long range weapons as other units neither have.. (except artillery)    
Thus, 45cm, maybe 60cm for AT rockets.
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:32 am 
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The Hellfire has a range of 8km and you think 120cm in Epic is to long to represent this?
In the fluff text it said that the Manticore can shoot 3km. I Epic its maximum range with indirect fire is 300cm.
So 8km in real live would be 800cm in Epic.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:44 am 
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Neal Hunt may be able to explain better:- Ranges in EPIC are not linear, but more logrithmic in nature to allow artillery pieces and other aspects of the army's rear to be represented on the table. So you get the following kind of representative ranges

15 cms represents something like 250 yds,
30 cms represents something like 1 mile,
60 cms represents something like 5 miles
120 cms represents something like 15 miles.

Consequently when thinking in artilley 'ranges' we really need to consider the weapons in similar categories and relate them within appropriate bandings. These are my personal thoughts, though Neal and others may be able to explain better:-

"Close support":- between 1-3 miles (30-45cms)
Medium range:- say 6-9 miles (60-75 cms)
Long range:- around 15-30 miles (120-180 cms)

If we consider the Hellfire missile under these kind of definitions, I would agree with Alansa and others that the range of around 8 Km (5 miles) would therefore translate to somewhere between 45-60 cms. If we agree that the missile should be capable of being launched outside the effective range of normal Main Battle Tanks, that suggests the statline of 60cms for the Vulture would be reasonable.

Along similar lines, I have always argued that medium and long ranged artillery should use indirect fire at their maximum ranges, so there should not be any artillery with a range of more than 90 cms - hence the Basilisk and Manticore ranges should actually be halved - but that is another topic.

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LoDown
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:14 am 
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I was a Bradley Linebacker Crewmemmber in the US Army 3 years ago and my job was to basically shoot Helo's  down. As for the Vulture it seems more like an A-10 Warthog then any Helicopter, and with Modern helocopter tactics they fire from a few miles away at night mostly. Unless they are in close air support where there is no set target.
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