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Chaos Army List trouble
Edgar-San
 Post subject: Chaos Army List trouble
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:19 pm 
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Hi,

I'm having trouble with my Chaos army (Black Legion list).

I have about 6000 points worth but only have one War Engine, a BaneLord.

At 3000 points my army seems to lack any real punch. In my last 4 games against mud-marines, i've only won one and the only time i've been able to cripple/destory a formation is wth massive ganaging up which leaves me exposed to counter attack.

It seems almost impossible to upgrade Retinues without sacrificing activation count. Should Chaos naturally be at an activation disadvantage?

I've played alot with Marines and Eldar and consider myself a reasonably good player but I can't seem to figgure out how to make the BL list work.

Please can anyone post successful BL armies they have used or seen so I can see where i'm going wrong.

Thanks
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Edgar-San
 Post subject: Chaos Army List trouble
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:28 pm 
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Here is an example of an army I used recently.

Retinue + Rhinos - 415
Retinue + Havoks - 425
Retinue + Deathguard + Pact + Prince - 500 (BTS)

Falorn + Rhinos - 145
Falorn + Rhinos - 145
Falorn - 125

Bikes + Pact - 325
6 Landraiders - 450
5 Chosen + Pact - 330

7 Lesser Daemons - 140

3000 points, 9 Activations

We had agreed no aircraft, hence no flack.

Is there something fundimentaly wrong with this list? Or am I not using properly?

I've noticed I don't use the commander ability very often. Should I be doing more Co-ordinated assaults?

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Chaos Army List trouble
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:56 pm 
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Well, Raptors are better than good at assaults, and cheap as they get. Maxium number of them. Feral is best scout sized titan, Obliterators are best ground flak (and great all-around unit) and minium sized Chosens with obli or not obli are great (and cheap). Oh yes, dont forget the best space ship too, you would find great use to all those planetary bombartments and 3 (!!!) pinpoint attacks. Put those scouts to spaceship so you can use them as living ammunition.

If you definedly want to use Banelord then park him on your blitz so he can deny enemy BTS and your blitz (and shoot  with his missiles and main cannon to those faraway formations and assault anything that is foolish enough to come close).

So...

Feral 300
(or two 300)
4 Chosens 260
4 Chosens 260
(or obi to both 150)
8 Raptors 280
(or flying prince to them 50)
Despoiler 250
1350 for 5 supreme activation (or 1850 for 6)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Chaos Army List trouble
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:53 pm 
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Aye, Feral Titans (And to a lesser extent Decimators) seem to be a regrettably nessesary crutch for Chaos Marine armies.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Chaos Army List trouble
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:43 am 
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(Rug @ Oct. 27 2007,22:48)
QUOTE
I however find Chosen abit of a disapointment ... bear in mind the don't have "and they shall know no fear" - so they're easily supressed and broken unless you invest.

Aye, but because of cheap price it does not matter so much if you lose one of the formations. And they still have great alpha-strike capability. I love tactic of two, first one comes in turn 2 to either smash some already weakened formation and then keep their head down (some enemy that has ventured too far from its support) or help in some big combined assault, second one will come to take the blitz in turn 3 (and if Despoiler is available she will drop more scouts to there too later (enemy have to do something to those four chosen, and after that they cant do the same thing to scouts too)).

I think Raptors are maybe too good. Same CC as Assault Marines and better FF combined to cheap price... If at same price, then FF should be downgraded to 5+. *shrugs*

Decimators are fun too, cheap and powerfull. If little slow and that combined with short range, it makes them little less desirable in my books. But they are good.

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rpr
 Post subject: Chaos Army List trouble
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:38 am 
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Well Raptors do not have ATSKNF..
But for the Black Legion list otherwise, Forlorn seem quite cheap.. and Obliterators especially. And what is this deal about FREE Chaos Space Marine Lord for Raptors and Chosen? Cult Marines also seem cheap, at least when compared to their own lists.
No wonder Black Legion has been so successful... :]
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Chroma
 Post subject: Chaos Army List trouble
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:05 pm 
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(Edgar-San @ Oct. 27 2007,18:28)
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7 Lesser Daemons - 140

Actually, I'd recommend getting rid of all the Daemons and related summoning gear... Lesser Daemons don't bring anything to the table that Chaos Marines can't already do, so I always feel those points are better spent on on-board units instead of things one "might" get into play.

In a Cultist army, Daemons are fantastic, because the tend to be better than the basic Cultist/Mutant, but are generally worse than a basic Chaos Marine.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Chaos Army List trouble
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:35 am 
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At the DS Epic Gt over the weekend, we had three BL armies playing and there were 3 Ferals, 2 Ferals & 2 Deathwheels and 2 Ferals and a Decimator in them. So I would suggest that you convert some Ferals.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Chaos Army List trouble
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:04 am 
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Feral Titans & Decimator need to lose MW from their BP weapons and have it replaced with Disrupt.

That is all. :)

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Chaos Army List trouble
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:33 pm 
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Retinue + Rhinos - 415
Retinue + Havoks - 425
Retinue + Deathguard + Pact + Prince - 500 (BTS)

Falorn + Rhinos - 145
Falorn + Rhinos - 145
Falorn - 125

Bikes + Pact - 325
6 Landraiders - 450
5 Chosen + Pact - 330

7 Lesser Daemons - 140

3000 points, 9 Activations


You didn't give us any information about how you were using the army, so it's hard to say whether you're doing anything wrong.  Without radically overhauling the list as others have recommended, I think there are a few tweaks that would make it more competitive.

Put your Prince in your Chosen.  He's a CC hammer, so putting him with teleporters to maximize that use would have advantages.  As it stands, the Chosen are your only strong method for attacking heavy units, like enemy WEs.  If you need that capability, keep them in reserves until that use makes sense.

If you have the models, I would trade the Bikes for Raptors just like everyone said.  The only advantage to bikes is the fact that they can take an Icon and you're not using that.  Raptors are better in other respects.

You might consider moving the Pact off the Deathguard formation to one of your Forlorn Hope formations.  The DG formation is going to be slow and the chances are good that you will want to use the lesser daemons before they reach assault range.  The Forlorn Hope formations are mounted and therefore quick.  They are also light, so the boost of summoning can be a big deal for them, turning them from a nuisance into a real threat.

You might also consider that for the Chosen.  It's  nice to do the big teleport/summon combo, but if you move the DP to the Chosen, daemons might end up being overkill.  Meanwhile, they are quite useful to the FH.

Tactics:

You're  going to be light on activations.  That's just BL.  You need to preserve your fragile formations (Forlorn Hope) so you don't get completely overwhelmed by activations later in the game.  One way to do that is to use them as reserves to fill holes in the line and threaten objective grabs rather than as a direct attacker.

Garrison the Havocs on OW.  They make for excellent area denial and in cover they are extremely hard to root out.  Garrison the Deathguard retinue.  It's geared for assault, but it's slow.  You need to take up all the distance you can.  I'd also garrison the footslogging Forlorn Hope, probably in a non-exposed area where they can move to threaten the enemy as the game progresses.

That gives you a hard line that's pushed pretty far forward.  Use your fast stuff to react and reinforce that line and restrict enemy movement and reaction.  Strategically, I would suggest a refused flank or pincer plan.

With that setup you can weather the first turn (which may be bloody) to pick an ideal target for the Chosen in the second turn.

Another option would be to go full out garrison - both retinues, all the FH formations.  That gives the enemy more information when they deploy and possibly exposes the fragile FH formations, but you could squeeze off a huge portion of the board.  Against an opponent like Eldar, it could be worth it.


Finally, as Nicodemus pointed out, a drop army could use very close to the same units.  2 Forlorn Hope formations (with those pacts) and a Death Guard retinue could fit in a cruiser.  Your army will be partially split on turn 1, but with teleporting Chosen and the remaining formations garrisoned or fast that would quickly be remedied.  That might work something like:

Garrison Havocs on OW.  Garrison Retinue on OW (Rhinos dropped to pay for pods on other formation).   Position fast stuff to reinforce.   You could drop on the deployment zone first thing to do a drop pod bombardment or, because you have some durability in your garrisons and a few formations to stall with, you could plan to wait them out and drop later in the turn.

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Edgar-San
 Post subject: Chaos Army List trouble
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:25 pm 
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Thanks for the replies guys, Very useful stuff.

I don't think i'll use dreadclaws since I've got a Imperial Marine Drop army already.

Hows this new list look?

Retinue + Havoks + Oblitorator - 500 (BTS, Garrison and shoot stuff all game)
Retinue + 4 Rhinos - 315 (attack objective)
Legion + 2 Rhinos + 2 Landraiders - 445 (Support attack)
2 Decimator - 450 (Support attack)

3x Forlorn Hopes (hold Blitz, lay BMs, use activations and screen)

Bikes - 300 (attack Blitz)
7 Raptors - 245 (attack Blitz)

4 Chosen + Oblitorator (teleport to threats)

Total - 2995 10 activations

Should I use the Decimators as one formation or 2? Together they harder to suppress but also 1 easy target and less flexable...

Also, is 4+1 too small for the chosen? If so, what can I get rid of?
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Chroma
 Post subject: Chaos Army List trouble
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:01 pm 
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(Edgar-San @ Nov. 04 2007,11:25)
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Also, is 4+1 too small for the chosen? If so, what can I get rid of?

A good thing about a smaller Chosen formation is that there's a good change they'll arrive without any Blast markers if they teleport down... that's actually fairly significant if they're going to attempt to assault a nearby enemy.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Chaos Army List trouble
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:22 pm 
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(Edgar-San @ Nov. 04 2007,11:25)
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Should I use the Decimators as one formation or 2? Together they harder to suppress but also 1 easy target and less flexable...

Also, is 4+1 too small for the chosen? If so, what can I get rid of?

I  would definedly go for 2 independent Decimators. 1 Decimator will never be supressed, it will either shoot fully or be broken. And if your enemy kills the other, then other does not care about it (compared to 2 in one formation, killing one will lead to surviving one to be broken).

4+1 is great for alpha-strike. And they bring AA with them. Just remember to "duck and cover" after that alpha-strike. But if you want to make them bigger, get rid of one scout and put decimators to two formation so you dont even lose activation.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Chaos Army List trouble
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:09 am 
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I would go for the 3 ferals, the two single decimators (all this to max activations and minimise the effect of shadowsword companies and the like), then the CSM formation for SC (don't make him your BTS goal) and all the limited troops - there is a reason they are limited, well that or their limited nature made them hard to test!

I can't use demons well so don't, and go for regular troops.

I wonder if the list should reward those who follow the dark gods and can use their demonic servants?

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