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Tiding from SG about epic
dafrca
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:42 am 
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(Reaver @ Aug. 01 2006,16:13)
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This makes developing the game a bit of a nightmare, unfortunately. The only solutions I see are:
SG picks up the reins again and invests some money. (Unlikely!)
or
Forgeworld takes over SG.

As much as I would like either of these, you are forgetting the third option. GW kills the SG games.

This would not be the first time GW has not allowed anyone to support a game. They have killed whole lines before. So this third option is not that far fetched.

It is the fact that, dispite fan support, GW has done this in the past that has Old Schoolers worried.

I agree with you that if GW does not want to support it, then asking FW to do so would be great. But I am not so willing to think that is the only option.

dafrca




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:47 am 
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I've actually come to believe for quite some time now that if Titan Liegions III is ever to see the light of day, it will be under the banner of ForgeWorld.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:14 am 
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I hate to be a pessimist, but I think the most likely outcome is that GW torpedoes epic, again. Actually, it will probably be more like a lingering death, as is kind of happening now. Slowly, but surely, GW is withdrawing support from epic, with the latest sign being the redirection of Jervis' talent. I'll be shocked if Chaos or anything else gets released in Feb '07 (or at any time, for that matter). I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid I won't be.

Despite having said all this, GW can't do anything to kill my support of epic. Yes, I would prefer to see GW release new minis and it would be nice to have an "official" stamp of approval on new and updated rules and army lists, but at this stage in my gaming life, it's far from mandatory. As many of you know, I'm an epic veteran, having played epic since that glorious day when Adeptus Titanicus was released. I've survived the demise of each edition and despite GW's efforts to the contrary, I'm still playing Epic 18 years later.

NetEpic (thank you Primarch and cohorts  :;): ) has proven to me that a game can survive purely through the support of its players, without GW's support. Of course I want SG to survive to release new rules and minis, but I don't anticipate it. I'm willing to use proxies and fan written rules.

The bottom line is, no matter what happens, I will continue being an Epic supporter.

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primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:12 am 
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(dafrca @ Jul. 31 2006,20:32)
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(primarch @ Jul. 31 2006,16:41)
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Hi!

The problem is actual GW support. You can create, test and develop rules, but if GW does publish them (in which ever format) its pretty much moot.

A real net driven effort produces published goods regardless of GW. GW dependant endevours are still at their mercy to "support" when and how they see fit.

Primarch

Well I would take it slightly further. The support is not just about the publishing of the rules. It is things like not allowing Epic to be played as official tournaments at games days, or failure to publish more then the token image in the house magazine, or telling fans that you will not be selling the minis for a game any more even in your own stores. Many signs that combined mean a failure to support in my mind.

Allowing fans to talk rules to death does not support make.

dafrca

Hi!

Agreed. On one hand they ask "fans" to continue their endevours on the other they totally deny the game exists from a marketing/retail perspective.

You cannot have both those contrasting paramaters coexisting without one dominating the other.

Unfortunately we know from experience that GW pretty much has removed epic from the retail front, thus invalidating any effort.

Terrible, disheartening and sadly true.

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:14 am 
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(Legion 4 @ Aug. 01 2006,10:47)
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We literally do all Epic rules here... seems to me, now!

And DRM is releasing a set of rules soon... not to mention GZG's and others... so again, G/W at this point seems unneeded... unless you're a rabid "Fanboy"... but as always DWWFY! :D

The DRM rules may be a major paradigm shift, but in any event...

I think we need to get out of the "G/W Epic is the center of the 6mm Sci-Fi Uni Mindset!"

And move more to an overall 6mm Sci-fi "mindmeld."

With G/W's Epic being seminal, but very much enhanced by DRM, GZG, BT, SJM, etc. ... :D

Hi!

Im pretty much there already. With the latest netepic rules out, I focus moire and more on what DRM and other people are offering as far as rules and look more and more interested in alternate minis for 6mm.

If GW doesnt want my money Im sure those other companies will.

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:18 am 
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(consectari @ Aug. 01 2006,11:46)
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G/W at this point seems uneeded ... unless you're a rabid "Fanboy"


While I don't consider myself a rabid fanboy, I don't want GW/SG to go away. ?I would much rather use actual CSM for CSM. ?I like DRM Andys, but they aren't Necrons and never will be. ?They are just a passable stand in.
?
I WANT REAL EPIC MINIS. ?

I LIKE the Epic background. ?Without Epic, I simply COULD NOT play any 6mm. ?I only have 1 opponent and that's all he plays!

I don't believe with places like this forum, that there will ever be a shortage of "suppliments" to go with Epic, but realistically new OFFICIAL minis may be VERY limited or non existant.

It looks like people are dividing up into 2 camps. ?Those that prefer only GW's minis and those that are willing to go outside GW for minis. ?

No one can stop you if you want to use only GW, but realistically, your selection will run dry and soon. ?If you are satisfied with what you get, that's great.

There are those like L4, myself, and many others that want a wider range available to us. ?You'll never build a Necron army if you wait for GW to provide all the pieces, or a "Slann" army, or possibly even Chaos. ?Not to mention alot of homebrew ideas that are just as good, just as valid as alot of the background GW has cranked out. ?GW is never going to give me the Bridgelayer that GZG will.

I'm underwhelmed with large portions of the other 6mm sci fi out there.

Large portions are poor quality, or just lack detail and style, yes, but there's alot of good stuff out there too, you just have to look harder to find it.
Hi!

I thoguht as you do for a LONG time. In the end GW's lack of support and lack of true marketing backup lead me to really not care for the "only GW for epic" approach.

I started with BT models for the netepic slann armies and now with DRM and even Baccus ptting out some really nice looking minis frankly I have ceased to care if GW ever puts out another epic mini.

If they do, fine, I'll buy, if not the other companies get my money.

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:21 am 
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(dafrca @ Aug. 01 2006,17:01)
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I think we need to slow down and not see this in absolutes. Just because someone WANTS GW Epic Minis does not mean they can not see the problems. And just because someone admits there is problems within the GW/SG family does nto mean they do not want GW Epic Miniatures.

I WANT my Sisters of Battle and Necrons. I do not want Proxies. I want SG to be successful and continue to produce new miniatures of all kinds. I want my Chaos friends to get their new minis. I want my Tyranid friends to get their bugs.

The fact that I see GW pulling support from Epic does not mean I want them to do so.

This is not a case of ?Loyal Fans? vs. ?Naysayers?. We are all here because we are fans.

dafrca

Hi!

True we are all fans.

If I had my wish epic would be a third core game again, with monthly releases and a robust line of minis.

Unfortunately GW has decided for whatevr reason that epic is not worth the resources. We can rage about it. Be indignant and cranky, but thats the way it is.

Reality does suck I must say.

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:23 am 
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(dafrca @ Aug. 01 2006,19:42)
QUOTE

(Reaver @ Aug. 01 2006,16:13)
QUOTE
This makes developing the game a bit of a nightmare, unfortunately. The only solutions I see are:
SG picks up the reins again and invests some money. (Unlikely!)
or
Forgeworld takes over SG.

As much as I would like either of these, you are forgetting the third option. GW kills the SG games.

This would not be the first time GW has not allowed anyone to support a game. They have killed whole lines before. So this third option is not that far fetched.

It is the fact that, dispite fan support, GW has done this in the past that has Old Schoolers worried.

I agree with you that if GW does not want to support it, then asking FW to do so would be great. But I am not so willing to think that is the only option.

dafrca

Hi!

IMO, your third option is what will and is happening to epic.

The only thing to debate left is if epic will ever resuface again, and how long will it take.

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:25 am 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Aug. 01 2006,20:14)
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I hate to be a pessimist, but I think the most likely outcome is that GW torpedoes epic, again. Actually, it will probably be more like a lingering death, as is kind of happening now. Slowly, but surely, GW is withdrawing support from epic, with the latest sign being the redirection of Jervis' talent. I'll be shocked if Chaos or anything else gets released in Feb '07 (or at any time, for that matter). I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid I won't be.

Despite having said all this, GW can't do anything to kill my support of epic. Yes, I would prefer to see GW release new minis and it would be nice to have an "official" stamp of approval on new and updated rules and army lists, but at this stage in my gaming life, it's far from mandatory. As many of you know, I'm an epic veteran, having played epic since that glorious day when Adeptus Titanicus was released. I've survived the demise of each edition and despite GW's efforts to the contrary, I'm still playing Epic 18 years later.

NetEpic (thank you Primarch and cohorts ?:;): ) has proven to me that a game can survive purely through the support of its players, without GW's support. Of course I want SG to survive to release new rules and minis, but I don't anticipate it. I'm willing to use proxies and fan written rules.

The bottom line is, no matter what happens, I will continue being an Epic supporter.

Hi!

For those who were around when the same happened to epic 40k, pretty much the sdame trends can be seen now.

It starts withlack of support. Less and less "official" communications. Until one day....

..zero...silence..nothing

We're "in the zone" of that now.

I wonder how long this "epic dark age" will last.....

Primarch

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dafrca
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:30 am 
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(primarch @ Aug. 01 2006,20:21)
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We can rage about it. Be indignant and cranky, but thats the way it is.

Yes, I agree. And thus, as a fan who bought way too much of his collection from GW I elect to Rage. I can do nothing else, but I can voice what I see and how I feel about it.

dafrca

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:32 am 
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Very Good points Daf, D/S and Primarch ! ?Hey, I have 10+ Epic G/W-F/W Armies (SM, Traitor SM, IG, Orks, Eldar, Squats, CSM(incl. Cultists), 'Nids, Tau & Kroot and TL !). ?So I'm a closet Fan Boy at best ! :;): ?But as I said I started Epic in '90 (SM1/AT) and have bought every iteration and most models, since then ! ?So obviously I like it ! ?But what my point is with the clear lack of support and what appears to us "old school" types, as the pending demise of Epic looms, we will keep Epic alive here, even if G/W-F/W does not produce another thing ! ?And other than F/W's upcoming aircraft ... we probably not see anything else ! ? However, I love the DRM minis, and GZG, BT and SJG/OGRE aren't bad either ... And I look forward to DRM's rules ... So again ... DWWFY ! ? I do and always will ! :D

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dafrca
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:33 am 
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(primarch @ Aug. 01 2006,20:23)
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IMO, your third option is what will and is happening to epic.

I agree. But I am willing to open my mind to the other two. Sad to say though, most companies do not change their ways and because GW has gone down this path before, I believe it will follow Historical Precedence.  :(

dafrca

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dafrca
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:35 am 
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(primarch @ Aug. 01 2006,20:18)
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...... frankly I have ceased to care if GW ever puts out another epic mini.

If they do, fine, I'll buy, if not the other companies get my money.

I do care, but the way they are going I do not expect that I will loose much money to them in the near future.

dafrca

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Reaver
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:28 am 
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Desparate as I am to see FW produce new Epic minis, I was pleased this morning to finally receive my 2006 FW catalogue.
Only to find... no Epic minis at all! Just a note to say that 'older' models are still available through the website. I've tried to get Epic roads from them, and they are 'no longer available'.

Even my mindless faith in GW is slowly being eroded....

Reaver

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tiding from SG about epic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:32 am 
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They removed the slower selling models (Such as Epic & Warmaster) from the catalogue about 6 months ago.

They're still committed to producing new Epic scale models though (At the moment aircraft... a new Thunderhawk gunship is coming soon).

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