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Could Operation Sealion have worked...
Jimbo
 Post subject: Could Operation Sealion have worked...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:26 pm 
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Quote (Tas @ Oct. 11 2005,09:39)
The biggest problem all these platforms have is that they are still a single platform, vulnerable to a ranage of threats and once they are gone (sunk or damaged), their force projection capability is removed. ?Thats why there is such a big emphasis on network enabled multi-role platforms to remove critical nodes.

Nice to see that the Royal Navy is planning along these lines...

...with a new big carrier!

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/1971.html

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primarch
 Post subject: Could Operation Sealion have worked...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:36 am 
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Hi!

Interesting, didnt know the RN was wroking on such a ship.

Primarch

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Could Operation Sealion have worked...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:43 am 
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Wow !  That's one big boat !  With the example of the USN's use of CVNs, in the past 60 years and most recently in the Mid East, it's hard not to see the effectivness of them !   I also just found the "SEELOWE" article in an old S&T, so I'll review that in my free time !  :D

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Jimbo
 Post subject: Could Operation Sealion have worked...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:10 am 
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The US experience has certainly made an impact on the RN.

The RN has been struggling to find a real role for itself now that Soviet submarines are not such a threat as they use to be...

Recent conflicts have demonstrated the weaknesses of the British armed forces in being able to get firepower to where it is needed. A carrier will allow them to do that. HMS Ocean has been the proving ground for the new carrier getting all three armed forces to work together.

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Tas
 Post subject: Could Operation Sealion have worked...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:11 am 
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Wow !  That's one big boat !  


Its a Ship my friend:
Ships carry boats,  
Submarines are boats, and
Anything smaller than a Corvette is a boat (ie Patrol boat)

Calling a Ship a Boat is particulalrly insulting! :D
Being a ground pounder though, I'll forgive you your ignorance into Naval Terminology :p

cheers!
:)

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Jimbo
 Post subject: Could Operation Sealion have worked...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:17 am 
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Giggles
:D

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Could Operation Sealion have worked...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:49 pm 
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I'll keep that in mind, Sailor ! :;): Maybe that's why I call it a boat, as CVN pilots ... think they are God-like !  But so do Green Berets, Seals, etc. !  :laugh: :;):

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Could Operation Sealion have worked...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:54 am 
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Found that old S&T, #40, 1973 (!) with the article on SEELOWE.  Half way thru it ... Mentions many of the things that we said ... :D

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Could Operation Sealion have worked...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:26 pm 
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Hmmmm... I stand corrected about the survivability of the German FC system, but I still believe that the optics proper were better.

Re:  The Brit CVF.  What happened to the time when the queen's ships were elegant?  That's one of the least attractive ships I've ever seen.

Boat:  with the exception of submarines, a small craft that is carried by a ship.

Submarines have been called 'boats' since their creation (when they could be carried by ships), and as a sarcastic comment about how the old diesels clustered around their tenders, like piglets around their sow.  (qf. 'pigboat', also an allusion to how the crew smelled)


What do you mean, the P38 put more firepower forward?  4x .50cal and a 20mm are outmatched by the 4x 30mm on an Me262, and arguably by the 6x .50cal on a late P51.  There's also the Grumman 'cats.  The F4F Wildcat carried 4x .50s, and the F6F Hellcat carried 6, IIRC.  The F4U carried either 6 or 8 .50s, and a P47 carries 8x .50cal, IIRC.  

The first Mustangs (Allison-engined A36 and P51/51A) were marginal as high-altitude fighters, but very good at lower altitudes.  It wasn't until the Merlin Mustangs showed up that the Me109/FW190 were seriously outmatched.

P39s were poorly balanced to be effective fighters, but made decent ground-attack planes.

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Tas
 Post subject: Could Operation Sealion have worked...
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:42 am 
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(qf. 'pigboat', also an allusion to how the crew smelled)


'allusion'?  Its a bloody fact!
Diesel boat sailors stink :laugh:
And their skin goes yellow in the sun due to supersaturation by diesel fumes.
Its just nasty down there....

I think sinking them is doing them a favour by putting them out of their misery.  :)

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netepic
 Post subject: Could Operation Sealion have worked...
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:50 pm 
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Anyone playing Hearts of Iron II? You can try and get operation Sea Lion to succeed if you want...

Personally as the Brits... I am pretty much holding my own, beat back the Blitzkreig as it assailed France, they launched two attacks against my B.E.F, had about 15 divisions in France, rebuffed the enemy twice, then the French line crumbled and my men were surrounded and had to fight through the enemy to get to the waiting transports :S. Now am an island under siege but rule the waves, breifly managed to land 12 divisions in a sneak raid that got as far as Hamburg before having to once more flee as the Germans counter attacked. Have managed to temporaily recapture Amsterdam.

Basically the plan is to deny the Germans a chance to rebuild there navy, continue to maintain air superiority over the UK skies, and keep the Germans attention whilst trying to drag the US into the war. Germany has NOT invaded Russia they are busy whizzing round the coast lines trying to stop my marines raids. Italy has lost the middle east and Germany hasn't intervened so far.

The Japs have stayed out of the war and are behaving for now. So to summerise, a bad situation but not dire.... yet. Could use an ally though :S

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Could Operation Sealion have worked...
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:03 pm 
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Quote (Lion in the Stars @ 13 Oct. 2005 (21:26))
What do you mean, the P38 put more firepower forward? ?4x .50cal and a 20mm are outmatched by the 4x 30mm on an Me262, and arguably by the 6x .50cal on a late P51. ?There's also the Grumman 'cats. ?The F4F Wildcat carried 4x .50s, and the F6F Hellcat carried 6, IIRC. ?The F4U carried either 6 or 8 .50s, and a P47 carries 8x .50cal, IIRC. ?

The first Mustangs (Allison-engined A36 and P51/51A) were marginal as high-altitude fighters, but very good at lower altitudes. ?It wasn't until the Merlin Mustangs showed up that the Me109/FW190 were seriously outmatched.

P39s were poorly balanced to be effective fighters, but made decent ground-attack planes.

The F6F and the F4U had 6 50-cals and the P-47 had 8. Also, late model FW 190s (the G model IIRC) had 4 20 mm cannons.

One advantage the P-38 did have was that the guns were directly in front of the pilot, meaning they didn't have to be aimed like wing mounted guns so that their shells met at some point in front of the plane.

One other thing, if you want to be picky, the A36 wasn't called the Mustang; it was called the Apache.

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Jaldon
 Post subject: Could Operation Sealion have worked...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:04 am 
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P-38 Lightning's weapons were all nose mounted making it much easier for the pilot concentrate all of the aircrafts firepower on the target. Wing mounted weapons have always been inferior to nose mounted weapons in their ability to concentrate their firepower, a fact that wasn't lost on WWII aircraft designers and explains the mountings on the Me-109, and the A6m2.

Proof in the pudding, the top two American aces of all time, Maj. Richard I. Bong (40 confirmed victories) and Maj. Thomas B. McGuire, Jr. (38), both flew P-38s

The top FC system in WWII Naval Battles was radar FC, optical came in a poor second compared to that system, and the USA had the top radar FC system of the war, followed by the Brits.

Last, the first Mustangs were given to the Brits, which is why I said American piloted P-51s, and I assume one of the top German Aces of WWII would know what he is talking about, and it was his words not mine.

Rule #1: Never, ever, ever, tell a submariner that the vessel he is in is a SHIP, Nor do you ever, ever, ever tell a (Put ship class here) sailor that his vessel that is above the water is a boat. This will result in a tounge lashing lasting the rest of the evening about how easy it is to tell them apart :blush:

Rule #2: Spec Ops Guys ARE Gods, pilots just think they are gods. Name for me one pilot (besides Hans Rudel) who's brain operates properly below 15,000 feet :D

Rule #3: If you want to find Airborne Recon Teams just follow the trail of beer cans, really :D

Jaldon :p

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Could Operation Sealion have worked...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:53 am 
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Got to agree with you on all points, "J", especially #2 & #3 ... :;):  But you and I know the deal ! :laugh:

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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: Could Operation Sealion have worked...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:59 am 
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Name for me one pilot (besides Hans Rudel) who's brain operates properly below 15,000 feet :D


Ilmari Juutilainen, Hans Wind, "Pappa" Turkka... I could write here the names of all Finnish WWII pilots but I'm too lazy.  :D

EDIT: Germans did have top-class radar in the early war, BTW. It was only about mid war, when the allies switched from decimeter to centimeter wavelength radar, they went past Germans.

The Germans seemed to have one significant weakness in their research: arrogance. Namely the attitude "if we can't do it, nobody else can". That's why they refused to believe that the british ASW forces were pinpointing the radio transmissions of the U boats. IIRC Germans didn't have radio locators aboard ships.




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