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Fear God and Dreadnought!

 Post subject: Fear God and Dreadnought!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:28 pm 
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According to some stats I have the secondary guns are eleven to twelve 5" guns, depending on the ship.  

These are contained in casemates which go around the ship.  5 to startboard and 5 to port, with two firing to the rear.

If you look at the scale model you can see the guns pointing out the side and a Age of sail ship of the line.


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 Post subject: Fear God and Dreadnought!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:31 pm 
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Hi!

Never had much experience with naval games, but your report is certainly enticing and interesting! :)

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 Post subject: Fear God and Dreadnought!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:12 pm 
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"Never had much experience with naval games, but your report is certainly enticing and interesting!"

I was always impressed by the ships and minis but always turned away by the rules. ?Lamont solved that problem by using the computer program. ?So we can concentrate tactics as opposed to tables and charts. ?

At the very least I hope to provide a little light history entertainment.
:D






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 Post subject: Fear God and Dreadnought!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:15 pm 
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Hi!

I think you are right. The few times I looked into it I was turned off by the rules. Using a computer though makes it viable and interesting.

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 Post subject: Fear God and Dreadnought!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:18 am 
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CC - what a bizarre ship design!!! Id never heard of it either.  In the pre-dreadnought era, many nations did what they felt was right or might work and there were no standard design conventions.  Then when the RN put the DN to work, its superr class made everyone take a look, copy her and improve upon it.

As for your ships blowing up...well you are in good compmnay there.  Look at Jutland!  :D

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 Post subject: Fear God and Dreadnought!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:34 pm 
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Quote (Cuban Commissar @ 27 2005 June,22:28)
According to some stats I have the secondary guns are eleven to twelve 5" guns, depending on the ship. ?

These are contained in casemates which go around the ship. ?5 to startboard and 5 to port, with two firing to the rear.

If you look at the scale model you can see the guns pointing out the side and a Age of sail ship of the line.

Oh yeah, I should have known they would be in casements. It certainly is a bizarre design with 1 main gun all by itself in a turret. I believe when the RN experimented with 18" guns, the test ship (possibly Furious) had a single 18" in a turret, but that was just for testing, not for actual combat.

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 Post subject: Fear God and Dreadnought!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:48 pm 
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Quote (Tas @ 28 2005 June,08:18)
CC - what a bizarre ship design!!! Id never heard of it either. ?In the pre-dreadnought era, many nations did what they felt was right or might work and there were no standard design conventions. ?Then when the RN put the DN to work, its superr class made everyone take a look, copy her and improve upon it.

As for your ships blowing up...well you are in good compmnay there. ?Look at Jutland! ?:D

The turn of the century is a very fascinating period of history for military technology. ?It was progressing so fast that ships where being made obsolete in years. ?

The SMS Blucher a ship only a couple of years old was no match for the Battlecruisers that were being built at the same time. The early battlecruisers where soon to made obsolete by the new classes of fast Battleships such as the Queen Elizabeth class. ?Which ere just as fast, had bigger guns, and more armor. ?This in a span of a few years. ? ?

I think it was very similar to the early jet age when we seemed to have a multiude of designs appear very quickly.

As for the ships blowing up Tas, that is one crowd I am trying to avoid being in, without much luck. ? ?

Of course I did some calculations and during a "game turn" several salvos could be fired. ?So my ship wasn't crippled by one hit. ?It was cripped by serveral of the 24 shells fired that turn. ?

When I looked at it that way the crits were easier to take and understand.






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 Post subject: Fear God and Dreadnought!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:50 pm 
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Oh yeah, I should have known they would be in casements. It certainly is a bizarre design with 1 main gun all by itself in a turret.


Remember though, that this was a natural evolution of the black powder muzzle loading cannon from the Age of Sail, these were then upgraded to Breach loaders, then sunk individually into mounts and casemates.  One of the thoughts behind it was redundancy - ie loose one turret, you only loose one gun.

Multiple turrets certainly became the norm for all sorts of reasons, but now...

Take a look at how the 2 x 5" guns on a CG are setup - are they in 2 x single mounts or a single twin? :;):

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 Post subject: Fear God and Dreadnought!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:45 pm 
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Quote (Tas @ 28 2005 June,23:50)
Oh yeah, I should have known they would be in casements. It certainly is a bizarre design with 1 main gun all by itself in a turret.


Remember though, that this was a natural evolution of the black powder muzzle loading cannon from the Age of Sail, these were then upgraded to Breach loaders, then sunk individually into mounts and casemates. ?One of the thoughts behind it was redundancy - ie loose one turret, you only loose one gun.

Multiple turrets certainly became the norm for all sorts of reasons, but now...

Take a look at how the 2 x 5" guns on a CG are setup - are they in 2 x single mounts or a single twin? :;):

Good point, Tas.

Speaking of the evolution of design, does anyone know of a book that is in print that chronicles ship development from the early ironclads through the predreadnaught era?

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 Post subject: Fear God and Dreadnought!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:01 pm 
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Port Arthur ? Torpedo Raid

A couple weekends ago he had yet another run around with our Battleships.  This is the tale of the engagement.

At the commencement of the Russo-Japanese War the Japanese Imperial Navy lead by the Japanese Nelson Admiral Togo launched a night time torpedo boat attack on the Russian navy anchored in Port Arthur.  We recreated that engagement and the follow on battle that took place in the morning.  Here are the Japanese destroyers that we commanded.  I played the Japanese with one other player.

First Destroyer Flotilla: 1st Destroyer Division: Shirakumo, Asashiwo (both Shirakumo class ODD), Kasumi, Akatsuki (both Akatsuki class ODD). 2nd Destroyer Division: Ikazuchi, Oboro, Inadzuma (all Ikazuchi class ODD). 3rd Destroyer Division: Usugumo, Shinonome (both Murakumo class ODD), Sazanami (Ikazuchi class ODD).

Here is the unsuspecting Russian fleet.  

The First Pacific Squadron: Peresvyet (Peresvyet class OBB) (Flag of Rear Admiral Prince Ukhtomsky), Pobyeda (Peresvyet class OBB), Sevastopol (Petropavlovsk class OBB), Diana (Pallada class OCR), Bayan (Bayan class CR), Petropavlovsk (Petropavlovsk class OBB) (Flag of Vice Admiral Stark), Tsarevich (Tsarevich class OBB), Poltava (Petropavlovsk class OBB), Retvizan (Retvizan class OBB), Pallada (Pallada class OCR), Novik (Novik class OCR), Boyarin (Boyarin class OCR), Askold (Askold class OCR).

The attacked occurred at night so visibly was set to 5%.  We played with blind rules and ships would only appear as the Japanese sighted them.  Even then details of the ships were not given to the IJN player.  We were told approximate size of the ships, but that was all.

During our run into the port the Russian player was rolling to see if their crews noticed anything and woke up.  I immediately asked a totally gamer question?

?Does my speed modify the Russian die roll for waking up?  No said the game master.  
Well then, set my speed to 31 knots!? 

As my destroyers burned in at 30+ knots I passed my allies lead destroyers and the first line of Russian ships appeared before us.  Based on the size description these seemed to be cruisers.  ?Bah!? I said I want the battleships and I won?t settle for less.  Playing the role of the reckless and brave Japanese destroyer commander I once again ordered my ships at full speed ahead.  With a brilliant display of seamanship the Japanese destroyers weaved between the first line of Russian ships.  We passed between the moored ships at 30 knots, but lucky for us the Russians where very sound sleepers.  I guess I?m lucky Lamont hasn?t built in collision rules into the program.  

We now were able to see the big Russian ships of the second line, but not all the big ships were accounted for.  There must a third line.  So this time with a little more caution we slowed to 10 knots and weaved between this second line of Russian ships.  Any faster and our destroyers would have plowed themselves into Port Arthur itself.

 
At last we found the last of the Russian Battleships.  My destroyers found themselves between two lines of Russian ships in some cases I was less than 1,000 yards away from the enemy.  Considering our last experience with a mass torpedo attack I made darn sure we were at point blank range when the torpedoes were fired.  It was time to attack.

Of course before we could launch our torps the Russian ships had there chance to blast us.  During the run in the Russians were slowly waking up and we were now receiving fire.  There where many splashes around my ships now from the light guns of those Russians ships with alert crews.  Funny enough it was the most distance Russian battleship that woke up first.  Go figure.

Despite their firing the Russians couldn?t hit a thing.  At this point I put twelve torpedoes in the water and took the most direct path out of the port at high speed and evading.  

As we moved away we were rewarded with the sound of explosions from the Russians ships. Now the Russians were awake!  

On a funny note Lamont had worked very hard to add this sound file when the torpedoes hit. It made this great splash and explosion noise followed by the general alarm going off on a ship.  We had tested at home.  Unfortunately He had not tested it on the Labtop and when are torpedoes hit, the first time in actually game play that torps had worked, the victory sound we got was a very sad little computer ?beep, beep, beep.?  You should have seen to poor look on his face.  He had wanted everyone to hear this cool sound file and now it was in the wrong directory.  Poor guy?=)

The second wave of destroyers had not yet fired their torpedoes.  They now game under an intense fire from the greater number of Russians ships that were active.  While many a shell was fired the Russian gunners still had trouble picking up the small ships in the dark and all survived this current barrage.  This second wave now between the first and second lines of Russians ship dropped their torps and ran.  

As the ships sped away we heard more explosions?Hurray!!

Now there was just one last Japanese destroyer, the Shinonome, whose captain though he was very clever.  He was maneuvering his ship to be precisely at the head of the Russians ship and launch his torps all the way down the length of the anchored ships.

Well the destroyer got into his perfect position and was promptly blown out of the water by the light guns of the Russian fleet.  All the remaining destroyers escape without further incident.  The Russian crews were now battling the floods and fires that the torps had caused.  

As the Japanese player we were not informed of the specific damage done to the Russians.  We would have to discover what, if any, effect we had on the Russians on the upcoming battle.

The Battle of Port Arthur

Following the torpedo boat raid Admiral Togo sent Admiral Dewa to recon Port Arthur.  The admiral reported that the Russians were completely unprepared for battle and many ship appeared damaged.  In truth the Russians were at battle stations with full steam up and ready to sail.  Togo brought his fleet into the harbor to finish the Russians he was surprised by what they found.  The next scenario was the recreation of that battle.  Here is the Japanese fleet.  

First Division: Mikasa (Mikasa class OBB) (Flag of Vice Admiral Togo), Asahi (Asahi class OBB), Fuji (Fuji class OBB), Shikishima (Shikishima class OBB). Second Division: Idzumo (Idzumo class CR) (Flag of Vice Admiral Kamimura), Adzuma (Adzuma class CR), Yakumo (Yakumo class CR), Nisshin (ex-Italian Roca Class CR). Third Division: Chitose (Chitose class OCR) (Flag of Rear Admiral Dewa), Takasago (Takasago class OCR), Kasagi (Chitose class OCR), Yoshino (Yoshino class OCR).Forth Division: Itsushima (Matsushima Class OCR), Hasdidate (Matsushima Class OCR), Chinyen (ex-Chinese Chen Yaun Class OBB)

We had 2 less battleships then historical but we included the old Chinese battleship and the two protected cruisers Itsushima and Hasdidate, the one gun wonders.  I took think that was a fair exchange.  

Well the Japanese fleet was heading due west across the mouth of the Port.  The Russians sallied to meet them.  They broke their fleet into two squadron one heading West and one heading south.  

As we discovered in our last game the Japanese ships were more effective at medium range, as a result the Japanese plowed ahead to close the distance.

I commanded the group of old Japanese cruisers and of course the ever popular trash ships.  I sent my cruisers due west to intercept the Russian Cruiser Boyarin which was far ahead of the other Russians ship being that she was on patrol.  

My trash ship I headed in a North by North West heading to intercept the first Russian squadron heading out of the port.  At an impressive 14 knot speed I wasn?t closing the range anytime soon.

The Battle quickly escalated as the Russian ship and the Japanese ships focused on the lead ships of their enemy fleets.  The Mikasa was surrounded by water spouts and was hit thus reducing her speed.  The Tsarevich was the focus of the Japanese battleships and took a few hits as well.  We did notice that the Russian battleship Pobyeda was not moving out with the rest of the fleet and another was moving quite slow.  So it appears our nigh attack did have an effect.  Unfortunately her guns were still active.  There was also intense fire from the Russian shore batteries.

As the battle progressed hits became more common.  Mikasa took further hits and her rudder was damaged.  She was forced to turn to starboard straight into the Russian battlefleet!  I gave a silent nod to acknowledge the fact of ?yep there goes one dead ship.?

I was more horrified when I saw ALL four Japanese ships turn with the Mikasa and now they too were heading straight at the Russian fleet.  The Russians thanked then kindly for their efforts and the Mikasa and other ship took some severe damage.  Mikasa was able to repair her rudder damage, so at least the death wheel was stopped.  The Japanese fleet turned to face the broadside to the Russians and the real pounding began as both battle fleets engaged full broadside to broadside.  

As the range had closed to almost point blank, at one point some targets where only 2,000 yards away, ships were being with great regularity.  We also made a new discovery.  The damage modifiers are different between the ranges.  So while 4 guns bearing on target grants you now modifier at long range.  At close range it gives you x3 damage.  We never knew that considering we had never made it to close range before.  

The damage being done was horrific.  The Tsarevich was being torn apart.  The superior Japanese shells really proving their worth at these close ranges. She took massive hits that started a huge fire.  At one point the Japanese sailors were rewarded with the site of the Tsarevich?s B turrets flying in the air.  She avoided a magazine explosive by a narrow magazine.  The next salvo blew up her boiler.  The prod ship had taken her last her was a drifting hulk with fire on her decks and water pouring into her hull.

Mikasa fared no better taking hit after hit.  She was reduced to three knots and soon the battle passed her by.  The Fuji was the next ship in line and she began seeing large shells land near by. With the Tsarevich dead in the water other Russian ships started to receive the royal treatment.  The Retvizan took some severe hits as did other ships as the battle developed into a melee of sorts.  

The Other Russian Squadron was engaged with the modern Japanese cruisers.  The Nisshin got the worst end of the stick when the Russians decided to concentrate on her.  After a series of Salvos her was still fighting but had taken heavy damage.  My trash cruisers also engaged this second Russian squadron.  The Chinyen firing her 5? guns first because they had longer range than her 12? guns (yes it?s that ugly of a ship).  My one gun wonders fired their single gun salvos and we made a few hits as the range closed.  They may only have one gun but the Russians discovered those 13? guns pack quite a punch.

Of course as a reward The Chinyen was targeted and her impressive 14 knot speed was reduced to 6 knots.

While this was going on there was a little drama of the Russian Cruiser Boyarin.  I decided my four old cruisers were not a match for the Russians battleships so I decided to pick on ships of similar design; of course the Russian cruisers where the most distant enemy ships from my own cruisers.  So we turn 90? degrees due west and moved at top speed to cut them off, The Boyarin being out in front was the closest.  

For a while my ships were too far away to fire on the Boyarin.  The Boyarin herself was racing due south to escape.  In time we closed the distance and my four cruisers started to bracket the Russian ship.  The Boyarin started to evade making life difficult for my gunners but there were just too many enemy ships.  In time shells found there mark and the ship started to slow and the distance was even closer.  As the range decreased her punishment increased.  At one point the Russian ship was a scene of endless 8?, 6? and 5? shells falling all around her and on her.  In time her engineering room was hit and she was dead in the water.  My cruisers moved in for the kill, but the Boyarin continued to fire and would not strike her colors.  She was swamped with shell fire as the Japanese moved to point blank range.  There were preparing to fire a torpedo into her side to finish her off, but she ceased to fire and became a hulk before it was launched.  

At that point my cruisers began firing on the Novik in the distance and moved to a North by Northwest course to attack this other group of Russians cruisers.  

At that point the game was called for time.

Overall it was great fun.  I think we have finally worked out the bugs in the critical system.  Everyone, including myself, seemed to like this new way.  The new system is your percent to get a hit is equal to the damage inflicted on the target that turn    If you scores a hit the chart is a little more dangerous.  So while critical happen less often they are just as effective.  So ships that just take a couple of points are not likely to suffer game ending critical.

The best part is that we had more players and as such as able to accomplish much more this game.  W had battleships firing at point blank range, T?s were crossed, and Cruisers attacked enemy ships that started at the other side of the board.  There was a lot of action.

In the end the damage was heavy on both sides but I think the Japanese had the edge.  It was still close when we stopped.  The Russians had lost one Battleship and one Cruiser while the Japanese had one Battleship and one Cruiser heavily damaged.  With the ships remaining I would say the Russians had more damaged ships than the Japanese.

At the end we also found out what the result of our torpedo run had been.

It appears we hit 3 Russian ships, 2 battleships and one cruiser.  The Pobyeda had taken three torpedoes into her side.  It had caused massive flooding and taken out her engine room.  She was dead in the water and if we had known how severe was the damage inflicted a few shells might have been lobbed her way.  She was very close to sinking.  

The other ships were the Poltava and the Pallada.  Each had taken a torpedoes and their speeds had been reduced.  Poltava had taken two torps so she was at about half speed.

So overall it was an impressive run by our destroyers after all.  

So there you have it.  Hope you enjoyed.

In the mean time I am trying to enter all the WWI data into spreadsheets to begin playing some WWI scenarios.

Lastly is anyone is interested in seeing how one of the battleships of this era actually looks like visit this website.  The Mikasa is a Museum in Japan.

Mikasa


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 Post subject: Fear God and Dreadnought!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:27 pm 
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Thanks, CC. Good read. :)

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 Post subject: Fear God and Dreadnought!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:22 pm 
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Thanks DS,

I surpised not to fine something from Tas. ?Oh well maybe I've worn out my welcome on this port.

The scenario this weekend is, from Lamont...

The Battle of Coronel

Admiral Cradock decides to take the old battleship Canopus along on his hunt for the German East Asia Squadron. Weather, luck and timing find his slower squadron pinning Admiral von Spee's ships against the Chilean coast. Will the Canopus prove to be the millstone Cradock thought historically, or will her 12" guns balance the engagement a bit in the Brit's favor?

British OB

Admiral Kit Cradock
CR Good Hope, armored cruiser (Flagship)
CR Monmouth, armored cruiser
CL Glasgow, light cruiser
OBB Canopus, old battleship

German OB
Admiral von Spee
CR Scharnhorst, armored cruiser
CR Gneisenau, armored cruiser
CL Dresden, light cruiser
CL Nurnberg, light cruiser

New rules:
(1) water spouts are here! overconcentration in effect at extreme range only
(2) program now accommodates delayed heading changes (turn at any point in your 3 min move) and squadron movement (you can really conduct "line ahead" on the table and the computer now)


I have requested the inclusion of the SMS Leipzig and the HMS Ontrano (coverted Merchant Liner).

Take Care Naval fans






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 Post subject: Fear God and Dreadnought!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:39 pm 
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CC, Tas was at sea himself (1:1 scale :p ) And thanks for the report - I'd have commented earlier but it's overload time for me :(

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 Post subject: Fear God and Dreadnought!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:28 pm 
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Well thanks Vanvlak. ?I was just worried that my current non epic trend was becoming boring. ?Or my writting just sucks which is quite possible... ?:D





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 Post subject: Fear God and Dreadnought!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:16 am 
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CC, I am sure Tas will catch up once he returns.

\As for your post, my only issue is that I do not know enough to comment so I read and enjoy and move on. :laugh:

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