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England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:37 pm 
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A nice piece of fantasy...  :laugh:

Oh, here are a couple of articles you might find interesting. The writer's English is not perfect (not that mine is, mind you  :8):  ) but the content is superb.

Ardennes 1940

Meuse 1940

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Justiniel
 Post subject: England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:48 pm 
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Thanks Mojarn, looks like a very interesting site, only skimmed through so far (I'm at work.....have to be seen working :( ) but looks like I could spend rather a lot of time there :D

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Magnus
 Post subject: England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:51 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 26 Oct. 2005 (01:32))

2) Italian soldiers run when you sneeze at them.


Totally false, they ran away just by looking at them funny and adding the word "shoo".....

Try telling that to the fallen at El-Alamein. Or to those of the Russian campaign.....

...better yet, try telling that to their currently living descendants. Fair warning: you could be in for a rather rude surprise about Italians' will to fight....

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Legion 4
 Post subject: England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:30 pm 
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Yes, more Italians died in Russia than North Africa !  I don't think the USA won WWII by itself ... 70-80% of the Germans KIA'd were on the Eastern Front ... In the Pacific the US was a bigger(est) player, but we don't forget the UK, ANZACs, Dutch, etc. ... history is what it is ... :;):

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Warmaster Nice
 Post subject: England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:00 pm 
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Most of the nations who have a less fortunate reputation on the battlefield does have a fairly good rep when it comes to the more romanitc aspects of life (well maybe except for the russians)....makes you wonder if these reputations are nothing more than a classical freudian case of envy on behalf of someone. At least there could be some sort of connection... I know where I (and the GF) would prefer I have my skills :p :laugh:

Cheers! :)

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Magnus
 Post subject: England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:08 pm 
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The current "battlefield reputation", as you call it, descends primarily from WWII wartime propaganda. After 60 years, it would be about time to drop it.... we had entire infantry divisions which fought to the bitter end, and were slaughtered for it.
The Folgore paratroop division at the end of the battle of El-Alamein was reduced to a few hundred men, from an initial number of several thousands. They never yielded.
During the russian retreat, the "Julia" alpin division stood its ground for one month opposed to a crushingly superior soviet offensive, trying to cover the retreat of the rest of the italian army. In the end they were surrounded by the russian armies breaking hungarian and german lines, and were killed almost to a man.
Despite the fact that they fought for a fascist regime, those men deserve a little more respect than that shown in this thread.

I'll now refrain from further comments, which I could easily add, or this will turn into a mega-flame and I really do not wish to bring the madness into this otherwise excellent forum. All I will say is, maybe someone ought to have a closer look at WWII military history.
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Warmaster Nice
 Post subject: England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:17 pm 
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Magnus is of course correct. The world is nowhere as black and white as sometimes portrayed.
Like L4 said these things are just a joke. Truth is that history is much too complex to just boil down into simple statements like that.
In thre end "truth" always depends on the eyes that see and who writes the history books.

Cheers!

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Heresiarch
 Post subject: England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:54 pm 
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Quote (Tas @ 26 Oct. 2005 (06:20))
And if only they had linked up with General Patton to drive on Moscow and prevent the Cold War! :p ?:laugh:

Actually, the only thing the Allies need to have done post WW2... or even pre-WW2 for that matter... to cause the Soviet Union to collapse was just stop shipping them food.

If you actually get into the what and how much of what was actually shipped to them during World War II around 80% of all shipments were food, not weapons or vehicles.

No eat = no fight.

Perhaps a tad ruthless but I for one personally have a fairly hard time believing that a policy of not selling the Soviets food could have killed more people than Stalin ultimately did during his reign of terror. It's pure counter-factual speculation on my part but I suspect thing might have gone a bit differently if the Soviet Union had ceased to exist in the 1930s.

No Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact for example might have put quite a different spin on the Polish Campaign.

And as an aside regarding the Italians... frankly I have to agree with Magnus. Considering the quality of their equipment and political leadership their troops really did fight consistently above their appearent weight level during WW2.

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vanvlak
 Post subject: England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:15 pm 
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Adding to Magnus' post - the Italian pilots went through hell over Malta, facing one of the fiercest AA defences in the war as well as several fighter aircraft at a later stage - and they returned again and again. And there's the story of an attack on the harbour using Barchette, small speedboats loaded with explosive charges, which the pilot points at a ship, dropping off before impact. Together with a pair of Maiali (pigs, or human torpedos), they attacked the harbour defences. They failed, but the action - like others in Gibraltar and Egypt by the human torpedo crews - were amongst the bravest in the War. And in Egypt they accounted for HMS Barham, a battleship.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:30 pm 
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The Italians certainly did have a good navy during WWII, with good, modern battleships and cruisers. It's fortunate the admirals weren't willing to take more risks, otherwise the RN would have had a rougher time in the Med.

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Tas
 Post subject: England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:13 pm 
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Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 27 Oct. 2005 (04:30))
The Italians certainly did have a good navy during WWII, with good, modern battleships and cruisers. It's fortunate the admirals weren't willing to take more risks, otherwise the RN would have had a rougher time in the Med.

Its more a case of an insufficient amount of available fuel which curtailed their ops.  And yes the Italian XXth Light Flotilla was awesomely effective throughout the Med.

So back OT - a toast to Admiral Nelson!  :p
Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!
:;):

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:03 am 
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*passes grog to all at Epicomms*

Huzzah!  Huzzah!  Huzzah!

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Nerroth
 Post subject: England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:33 am 
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Yeah, yeah...

Seriously, you must realize that for a large portion of the planet, hails of 'Rule Britannia!' et al have been - and still are - tied in with notions of oppression, of massacre, of cultural imperialism and economic expoitation, of the astounding self-delusion many in the British press and public seem to have about their empire's 'achievements'.

Let's see commemorations of the dead at the hands of the Empire observed in Britain. Let's see articles and supplements relating to the less-than-proud aspects of British history. if it's fair to criticize modern Japan if a revisionist textbook is adopted, or if a politician does not - or appears not to - acknowledge Japan's bitter legacy in Asia and the Pacific, it's fair to ask the same from the UK.

Gary




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primarch
 Post subject: England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:58 am 
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Hi!

To this I say what the British said to the american at the revolutione end...

..may you never have a better master...

... for the state of some of the "oppressed" these days, I would bet some of them would rather be under British rule.... :;):

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: England Expects Every Man will do His Duty
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:15 pm 
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Quote (Tas @ 26 Oct. 2005 (20:13))
Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 27 Oct. 2005 (04:30))
The Italians certainly did have a good navy during WWII, with good, modern battleships and cruisers. It's fortunate the admirals weren't willing to take more risks, otherwise the RN would have had a rougher time in the Med.

Its more a case of an insufficient amount of available fuel which curtailed their ops.

Oh really? I could have sworn that I read somewhere that it was the timidity of the Italian admirals who didn't want to risk losing their capital ships. I bow to your better knowledge on the subject, sir.  :8):

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