London under attack again |
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Magnus
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Post subject: London under attack again  Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:47 pm |
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| Quote (dafrca @ 22 2005 July,18:55) | Terror and killing may have worked at times, but that still does not make it the best or right way to bring about change.
dafrca |
Actually, the terror part never works. The two cited examples (US and Eire) were only part of movements which had massive support from the local populations and which ended up being expressed in traditional political terms anyway [ignoring fundamental requests from most of your people in a large enough area is bound to get you some form of civil war sooner or later]. One could plausibly argue that IRA terrorist attacks actually slowed the onset of serious negotiations.
As for Spain, the withdrawal was announced by Zapatero before the act (it was part of his political program actually). Besides, judging the effectiveness of the islamic terrorists on western civilization by the short term effect they had on one particular election is rather risky.
Also, this terrorism is transnational and not linked to a particular area or population. And while we could argue on the amount of support it gets, I think we'll all agree that it is nowhere near the two previous historical examples.
Another serious difference is that this particular brand of terrorism does not have any political agenda, besides the vague notion of instating the "Umma" (islamic world wide theological superstate) which is clearly irrealistic.
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Jimbo
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Post subject: London under attack again Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:50 pm |
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| Quote (Magnus @ 22 2005 July,18:47) | | As for Spain, the withdrawal was announced by Zapatero before the act (it was part of his political program actually). |
Though some have argued that the socialists only got in because of the terror attacks and that people changed their minds as a result of the attacks.
Also the policy was in place as a manifesto pledge as the Spanish feared terror attacks, therefore you could argue that terrorism was the cause even though when the policy was agreed there had not yet been an attack.
I agree totally that terror and violence is never a solution.
I was merely responding to a comment that terrorism had not caused a government to change its foreign policy. In many respects 9/11 caused a fundamental shift in US policy, though not in the terrorists' favour...
There are numerous examples from history of how terrorism has caused change.
Remembered another example, in 1946, Jewish terrorists agitating for their own state in British-occupied Palestine blew up Jerusalem's King David Hotel, killing 91. Other acts of terror were also undertaken.
Two years later, an independent Israel was established.
There were a lot of innocent British women and children killed there, but in the end, it worked; the British left.
I would also agree that the current attacks do not really have a political agenda, but then again most terrorists aren't really bothered about political solutions._________________ Jimbo
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: London under attack again Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:14 pm |
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Jimbo and Gang,
I think that you and I are better off not discussing Israel here.
In fact, we're all better off leaving politics somehwere other than Epicomms.
The attack on the the King David Hotel was explicitly called in before hand as a bomb threat before hand but the British authorities ignored the threat.
I don't think it was justified, but every single one of the civilian employees at the King David Hotel was explicitly warned. It was the British military command that dismissed the threat and had the civilians stay. The British military was using the King David Hotel as a military headquarters while using civilian employees. Of the 91 casualties, all but about a dozen were members of the British military or part of intelligence services. The British government was very open about that in official communiques although the newspapers ignored that.
Most of the armed resistance by Jewish Israelis were against military targets. The Arab resistance to British rule was primarily directed towards British noncombatants. Two Jewish splinter groups (Irgun and Stern Gang) had other agendas and attacked civil targets with a strong relationship to military targets. Either way it wasn't OK to attack if there was a chance that civilian noncombatants were present.
As far as the idea that the pressure drove out the British, I disagree. The pressure only made the British more resistant to change. Bevin, a name to remember, was determined to stay. It took the writing on the wall to convince him otherwise. Bevin was a pretty nasty fellow by the accounts of his colleagues let alone his enemies.
The Jewish armed resistance also intensified the cruelty of the British. At that time they made all Jewish vehicles be marked with a big white band painted through the middle of the vehicle for identification purposes. This white band made it very easy for Arab marauders to destory such vehicles, which is exactly what happened. There was no such marking for Arab vehicles. British garrisons also frequently sat by while Arab marauders murdered Jews inc old blood with one of the most infamous of these incidents being the massacre of a bus full of doctors and nurses on the way to a hospital. The nearby British garrison didn't intervene because they were acting in the name of "neutrality."
Of course, those things happened long ago and I don't blame the modern British for what happened any more than I would want them to blame the Israelis, Jews or anyone else for their past mistakes. We must all start with a clean slate at some point because human beings are fallible by nature.
I ignored this thread until Israel was mentioned. That's my sore point.
I'd prefer if we could all drop this at this point and move on.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
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dafrca
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Post subject: London under attack again Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:20 pm |
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I do not remember who said it, but I remember a saying that went something like:
"It is easier to revolt then to govern."
I agree that terror can have an effect on things, I just do not like it and there is a dreamer in me who wishes there were other ways to resolve issues.
Sad to say, I know most of these people will not listen to me.
dafrca
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Legion 4
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Post subject: London under attack again Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:07 am |
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From an historical point, I believe Maksim is correct. And I agree, with Jimbo, these terrorist have no real political agenda ... However events since 9/11 have proven what we always thought when I was in the Army. We would not be fighting the Warsaw Pact, but Arab terrorism (in all of it's forms and faces). We knew sooner or later, we'd be forced into it ... and here we are. And it's going to be a long war ...
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dafrca
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Post subject: London under attack again Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:28 am |
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Terror is terror and killing is killing. No amount of justification can or should change that. Warnings do not justify the bombing of civilian targets. It was still wrong.
I do not care who it is or what past wrong they think they are trying to address. No amount of excuses changes the fact that it is wrong to kill civilians indiscriminately. Not Irish, British, American, Israeli, Muslim, no-one will ever change that. We are all wrong when we do it.
You were right Maksim, this subject should have stopped but as the moderator the thing to do would have been to lock this thread without further discussion.
dafrca
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Tas
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Post subject: London under attack again Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:31 am |
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Remember that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
I dont suppoose there will ever be an answer to it sadly. Look at how many Sci-Fi books and films still have neo-whatever extreemists still runnign terror campaigns.
Why? Because to a certain extent they work.
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dafrca
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Post subject: London under attack again Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:44 am |
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| Quote (Tas @ 22 2005 July,22:31) | | Remember that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. |
True, but it still does not make it right. 
We can call them by any title we want, it does not change what they did. A crime in the name of a cause is still a crime.
dafrca
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Tas
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Post subject: London under attack again Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:52 am |
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Please dont think I consider them anything but reprehensible and morale cowards. I think it is important though to understand how they operate and how they get their popular support (usually localised). Probably he military in me analysing how to take down bad guys
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Jimbo
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Post subject: London under attack again Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:05 am |
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Please be aware that I was never comparing the London terrorist attacks with previous terrorist actions. Nor did I say they were similar or alike.
I was merely pointing out that in the past terror and terrorism has been used to change the policies of demoncratically elected governments.
There is no justification for terror or terrorism.
There is no such thing as a military target, there are only targets.
There are only victims.
This post is now locked and closed.
_________________ Jimbo
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dafrca
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Post subject: London under attack again Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:55 am |
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Thank You Jimbo
dafrca
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dafrca
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Post subject: London under attack again Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:56 am |
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| Quote (Jimbo @ 22 2005 July,23:05) | | This post is now locked and closed. |
Jimbo,
You must have forgot to push a button or some such...
The thread is not locked for some reason.
dafrca
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Jimbo
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Post subject: London under attack again Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:24 am |
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Warmaster Nice
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Post subject: London under attack again Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:29 pm |
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(If I could I would, hint hint Cyber) |
Allright. Topic closed.
I'm sure we all agree that the intentional targetting of civilians under no circumstances can be justified regardless if we're talking freedom fighters, terrorists, war criminals etc.
In all conflicts there will be different points of view and people can allways argue werther a solution to a problem is the right one or not. However EpiComms is not the place for such discussions. 
Cheers! 
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