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Political Post

 Post subject: Political Post
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:56 pm 
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Athmos, feel free to make comments about the US, everyone does including Americans ! :D ? ?And as a student of history, as I said before, I know how well the French fought on many fronts in many wars. ?For anyone who doubts that, may I suggest Bernard Fall's "Street Without Joy" and "Dien Bien Phu". ?I worked a little with French troops when I was in the US Army and everyone held them in high regard. ?I'm not writing this to pamper your feelings, but stating "facts" as I see them. ?And as I have said before also, the French are in Afghanistan, and doing a good job there.  So?no one purposely meant to insult you or anyone else. ?And I know as a former soldier, we would be glad to have French Paras, Legionaires, etc. on our flanks. ? But as Cybershadow ..." these are difficult times."

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 Post subject: Political Post
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 7:47 pm 
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Don't worry Legion4, i am well aware of the success French army had, when they had some. I'm not particularly proud of it or whatever. French "mentaity" also have many flaws, just as any other natianal clich? mentality.
I don't speciall care about that. I just felt like if France - and about that, i would have felt the same about any other country- was becoming a joke subject.
I sure can do comment on America politics, or about the "clich?" of what is an american. I just think that, firstly, i may be offending for some of the people reading me, and that's not something i whish; secondly, i would be afraid, being almost the only frenchmen here, to find myself in dire minority if i was to defend any contested point of view; and more importantly, i don't think this is the goal of this forum.

Just an example : i am a pacifist, and i think america should not have go to war with Iraqui; it doesn't mean i support Saddam hussein, but i know that for many americans -or other pro-war people- it is the same. It mean that i think that without proof of the presence of mass-destruction weapon in the Iraqui army, the United Nations or the Otan or United State or whoever is the world cop should strike the country for that reason. there are many arguments to support my Point of view.
Now, i know some people here were in Iraq, others are ex-soldier, and i am aware that my POV will offend some people, and this is not something i want. I'm just not here to discuss that; if i wanted to, i'd go on a forum dedicated to politics, be it international politics or idealogical debat. I just used this example to show you how quick such a comment could degenerate; i am well aware of it, and i apologise if thoses few sentence offended anybody.

There allready are many allusion to ideological opinion here; i do my best to overlook it when i see those; this forum is in english language, and i can only expect to see the opinions of the majority of those country on this or that fact.
But i know that if i spoke about my opinions about those subjects, and probably others, i would hurt the opinion of the majority.
As i make the effort to do so, i'll expect others to do some kind of like effort; i do not ask anyone to be absolutely silent about anything political or ideological; i sure think those are important matters. But please, do refrain from such joke; i am well aware that this is just that -jokes- and i don't want to accuse anyone of anything. I just wish everybody would understand than such joke are one-sided, and no, there is no "bunch of frenchies" to answer on a similar tone. I would find it stupid to answer on a similar tone anyway.

And, as it is one-sided, i think it would be more fair if we try to abstain of too many comments of that kind, especially when they come in burst in a thread especially dedicated on the subject.
The forum is, -i believe- dedicated to wargames in Epic scale and BFG, and while i think that some off-topic post strenghten the comunity and make the forum a more friendly place, i would wich that such thread wouldn't happen here.

Im not bitter with anyone here, including people who posted in the thread i am refering to (and also you who started it, TAS, who ain't american BTW), because i think this sincerly was a joke. But this is nonetheless not something that make you feel at home when you happen to be french and to be a member of this forum.

Excuse me for this long post - this is just to clarify my position and opinion about the subject.

Athmos


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 Post subject: Political Post
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 11:19 pm 
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Well that is all fine, Athmos, you are entitled to your opinion, as is anyone.  And obviously, I'm not a pacifist.  But all that being said, We are all glad you or any other guy who plays Epic, BFG etc., are here.  Tas and I get along well, because it appears we are "cut from the same cloth". :;):  And both being of the "warrior caste", for want of a better term, we see things and have a sense of humor a little different, then most.  And I identify with soldiers from most countries better than I do civilians (even in my own country).  And many Americans feel as you do.   But we all can agree we like G/W stuff (most of the time :laugh: !) and that is what is important.   So I hope we are again one big happy clan again, regardless of our political, national, etc., etc. backgrounds. :)

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 Post subject: Political Post
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 2:04 pm 
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Thank you Legion4; i think that's just what i whished i hear :)
I hope nobody will hold a grudge against what i said; we are after all a gamer comunity here, and that's the important point.

Athmos


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 Post subject: Political Post
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 3:08 pm 
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I don't think anybody has a problem with what you said. And I should add that I'm glad none of the threads degenerated into the sort of thing I was afraid of. Speaks a lot about the maturity of the people in here.  :)

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 Post subject: Political Post
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 3:48 pm 
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Mojarn,

I don't think anybody has a problem with what you said.


I agree.

And I should add that I'm glad none of the threads degenerated into the sort of thing I was afraid of.


While they didn't get to the point of flame wars or such, many of the "iffy" threads did get to the point of offending people, which is unfortunate. I'm very glad that Athmos didn't leave over this. It makes me feel much better about the hard decision to close down the thread.

Speaks a lot about the maturity of the people in here.

We have a good community and as it grows we'll have to keep up the same level of maturity so that the new folks will know what the expectations are. Not too many people read what is written of expectations. They observe to see how the "regulars" act.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: Political Post
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 4:20 pm 
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You are very welcome Athmos! :) ?

And Maksim, did you get my package yet? ?

The US Postal Service is taking this Holiday stuff to heart! :o

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 Post subject: Political Post
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 4:45 pm 
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L-4,

I received the package on Saturday. Thank you. I apologize that I haven't sent anything back yet. I wasn't in the house much this weekend and my roommate's girlfriend's visit has disturbed a lot of the household rhythms. I'll get to it ASAP.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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I've got to get to Mojarn now too! Aaaggghhh! Too much to do!

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 Post subject: Political Post
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 4:53 pm 
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Thanks Maksim,

I'm always worried about my packages being lost in "the Warp!"?:o :D ?

Now I'm going to see if Doug got his! ?

Hey has anyone heard from Tas?

I've got a package waiting for him once he's dirtside in CA! :;):

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 Post subject: Political Post
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:49 pm 
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I am always confused when someone who plays wargames says they are a pacifist.  Epic, BFG, 40k, etc is a fantasy of killing and blowing things up.  I am not saying that everyone who in this forum is a blood-thirsty warmonger, but if war is such a bad thing then why play a fantasy wargame that glorifies it? Play football.

I think for those who did support the war Athmos, understand that is really had nothing to do with WMD.  It was about regime change first and foremost, and when everyone asked what gave us the right to do that, the US changed it to be about WMD.  I could careless if Saddam had them or not.  The guy killed 300,000 of his own people.  He deserves to be skinned alive and rolled in salt.

If you saw a person trying to kill someone, would you try and stop him?

If you say someone trying to kill a dozen people, would you stop him?

Couple hundred? Few hundred thousand? To me, not removing Saddam is like giving him the green light to continue what he was doing.  "I don't support Saddam killing his own people, but I don't think we should go to war." Nothing else was working.

If I have any bitterness about the governments that didn't support us, it is the reality that if that were happening here they would take the so called high road and do nothing to help us.  It just disgusts me.

I don't care if the war was for oil.  I don't care if we never find WMD.  Removing Saddam is one of the most noble things I have seen this country do in a long time.

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 Post subject: Political Post
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:57 pm 
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Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 03 2003 Dec.,15:49)
I am always confused when someone who plays wargames says they are a pacifist...but if war is such a bad thing then why play a fantasy wargame that glorifies it? Play football.

I dont know about anybody else, but in our footy team we are anything but pacifists.  We are in our third league now, after being banned from the previous two for too many 'incidents' :laugh:

The one we are currently in is much better though.  Run professionally, with fines for abusive behaviour and violence.  Which is starting to get a bit expensive for us  :{  

'OLD BUSH F.C.'

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 Post subject: Political Post
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:00 pm 
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I am with ya Gandalf, just a shame we never caught him.

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 Post subject: Political Post
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:11 am 
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Hi!

I'd bet critisism for the war would cease overnight is gas dropped to less than a dollar per gallon.....

Man is not inherently good or evil....

...just selfish.

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 Post subject: Political Post
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:41 am 
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"Never caught him (or them)" - yet ...

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 Post subject: Political Post
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:33 am 
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Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 03 2003 Dec.,15:49)

I am always confused when someone who plays wargames says they are a pacifist. ?


Speaking in general terms, being a pacifist and a wargamer isn't contradictory. After all, you can play and enjoy Street Fighter while disliking real-life boxing. It boils down to the fact that there's a bunch of things in a game that have unacceptable consequences in real life. In fact, if you look at it one way, experience in wargames can lead you to believe that war should only be a last resort due to the suffering on both sides when it happens. That's not true pacifism, though, but I hope you can see what I'm trying to say.

I think for those who did support the war Athmos, understand that is really had nothing to do with WMD. ?It was about regime change first and foremost, and when everyone asked what gave us the right to do that, the US changed it to be about WMD. ?


I don't believe that to be the case, according to the international media. The first speeches I saw were about Saddam supporting al qaida, then it was WMD, then it was enforcing the UN resolution 1441 or whatever number it was, then combat started, then it was unilateral regime change. The cynic in me notes that it only started being about regime change when the expected WMD weren't found. That doesn't exactly inspire me with trust.

I don't care if the war was for oil. ?I don't care if we never find WMD. ?Removing Saddam is one of the most noble things I have seen this country do in a long time.


I'm happy he's gone. I'm not so sure about the way he went though; it just smacks of vigilante justice to me.


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