Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 2 of 2
  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

When does an action become "Gamey"
vanvlak
 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:44 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:52 am
Posts: 10348
Location: Malta
I've seen the great beachball of Tzeentch liven up a game of WHFB....
But seriously, I think for this sort of stuff to wok the players have to have a gentlemanly agreement on the limits, and to be fair players both.
Random event cards, judiciously designed, could add spice. And the use of commanders with a limiting distance for giving orders in fantasy is great (Warmaster). Or no verbal communication in multi player games.

_________________
Back from oblivion (again)?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Moscovian
 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:34 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
I'ven masked my own units in heavy terrain (in a canyon as I recall) only to forget about them for a whole turn.  "Good grief!  Why didn't you tell me they were there!?" I remember asking.  ePilgrim just replied, "Because I didn't want them attacking me."

I think that type of thing is just fine, although in my case it backfired.  

BTW you left out another Bobby Fischer maneuver.  Spending 3 hours to make an opening move of P-K4.  He wore poor Spassky down in that grudge match.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Legion 4
 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:11 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
Based on my gaming and Real World experiences, many things can't truly simulated in a game. But some rules can be added/made to reflect certain aspects. With 6mm Sci-fi/Epic, we see it as a tactical game of "tactics" ... Not the silliness of 40K.  So one thing we always did was "activation", since '90. LOS is important for target Aquisition/sighting reciprocity, etc.. SM1 has rules for hidden units, using counters. The SPI old Game, that Ginger mentioned, "Search & Destroy" (I have it), use inverted counters for the VC. And proved to be a good "vehicle" for what was trying to be simulated.  Now we see Epic as a hi-tech version on WWII, and also as a game of Maneuver.  Not line-up and shoot, blocks of troops rush into the middle for C/Cbt., and it turns into the ACW !             So we try to "adjust" the rules to suit us and inturn, make it a game of "Fire & Movement"/Maneuver. Like WWII ... not WWI. So within those paramiters, "Deception" is a viable "tactic" ... If you get nothing out of reading Sun Tzu's, "The Art of War" - War is matter of Deception.  So in our minds, the way you move your units to complete your mission, Deception is an option ...

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:02 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
One of the guys I play with used table-level video feeds to commanders in separate rooms.  The minis were on one table.  The commanders were in separate rooms having to give orders to their scouts for intelligence gathering (moving the cameras) and to direct rest of the army for deploying and engaging based on what they found out.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
CyberShadow
 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:13 pm 
Swarm Tyrant
Swarm Tyrant
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore
Many wargames specifically design out the more random element to create a 'fair' game. In addition, the real issue that I see is that these kind of ploys are successul simply because they are 'outside the boundaries of the rules'. As soon as create the rules and allow these actions, they are expected and therefore become a part of the game itself.

There are numerous methods for introducing the 'before the game' actions which go on. Also, I think that part of the issue is that these kind of things can be very effective, and therefore create a one-sided game.

You can never recreate all possibilities, since half of the point of these tactics is that they are unexpected and unusual. If something like assassination happened in every battle, then it would be a normal part of most games, and we wouldnt think of it as an 'unusual tactic'.

_________________
https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Ginger
 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:35 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
You make the point quite elegantly CS. We can program into the game various randomising factors, cards, dice "events" etc which, by the fact that they have been declared in the rules, mean that the canny player will make allowances in his plans etc.

The earliest 'wargames' as such were Kriegspiel - set up by the German army to train their young officers using the three map system described above, where the officers issued order to an umpiring team, who replied with descriptions of what the units could see, or the results of combat. I have been fortunate to play a modern version of this, and it is very different - there are no rules as such, just a group of umpires who decide by their own means what has happened - more like a "dungeon master" but without all the tables!

What I referred to in the first post was people taking additional intelligent and plausible actions which fall within the realms of the background / fluff etc, so "feel" right - but which are not actually specified in the rules (or even prohibited under certain circumstances). Consider the torpedo example. The ships are armed with limited numbers of torpedoes, which take a number of turns to reload, yet the player announces a torpedo "shot" nearly every turn, going through the simple procees of determining a hit - but only announcing that the torpedo is fictional if damage is about to be recorded. Alternative ideas might be the announcement of fictional reserves or flank marches etc. Obviously you cannot "assasinate" your opponents CinC each game - but are there other "ploys" that can be used that do not break the rules, but do enhance the "realism" of the encounter??

More importantly, is this "cheesy" as it falls in line with creating the right feel for the game?




_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:55 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11149
Location: Canton, CT, USA

(Ginger @ Oct. 26 2007,15:35)
QUOTE
Consider the torpedo example. The ships are armed with limited numbers of torpedoes, which take a number of turns to reload, yet the player announces a torpedo "shot" nearly every turn, going through the simple procees of determining a hit - but only announcing that the torpedo is fictional if damage is about to be recorded. Alternative ideas might be the announcement of fictional reserves or flank marches etc. Obviously you cannot "assasinate" your opponents CinC each game - but are there other "ploys" that can be used that do not break the rules, but do enhance the "realism" of the encounter??

More importantly, is this "cheesy" as it falls in line with creating the right feel for the game?

On the surface (no pun intended), the torpedo example doesn't "feel" cheesy. I guess I would consider it clever gaming, rather than cheating. I can certainly think of historical precedent to support it. Generally I speaking, I prefer games to be as historically accurate as possible without sacrificing ease of play too much. I agree that there are ploys like this one that can be built into a game system that do enhance a game's realism without increasing the "cheese" factor.




_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Legion 4
 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:25 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
Well I used to play nothing but Historical and enjoyed it very much. But what I like about "Good" Sci-fi, is you can play without "Historical Bias". But still a "good Sci-fi" game/rules reflect a bit of reality generally, ie. AFVs act like AFVs, Infantry like Infantry, etc., etc. ... But has some of the Sci-fi stuff we "enjoy", like Aliens, Robots, etc., etc. ... ?And within the system we can play a game that reflects a healthy modicum of reality with also a healthy dose of "cool Sci-fi"* ! :alien: ?*[Cool Sci-fi, ie. Hammer's Slammers, Star Gate, BSG, some Star Treks, etc., IMO.] ? And some tactics can be used without "silliness" getting in the way ! ?:laugh:

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Mark_Logue
 Post subject: When does an action become "Gamey"
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:49 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 7:31 am
Posts: 1099
Location: Australia
(Cybershadow @ Oct. 25 2007,12:16)
I would love a game to include this, but it would be a totally different experience to a 'standard' wargame, and I am not even sure that it is possible.


The only way that I can see this working is to use a system similar to a role playing game where you had a game master who would be involved in narration.  Thus players could tell the game master what there ploy was and do all the relevant rolling and the game master would describe it to the other player thus some form of moderation would be added into the system and the Game Master would have the option of giving them extra information etc if they didn't think the ploy would be as subtle as the player intended (or if the other player had deployed scouts or something).

_________________
Epic- A version of the game with even smaller models that is often dominated by titans which are vehicles the size of a large building and have the ability to pwn...everything. There is also infantry, whose only function in Epic is to provide valuable traction to Titans walking across snowy paths.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 2 of 2
  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net