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Helicopters and real life
Ginger
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:15 pm 
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One last thought about comparrisons with "real life".

E:A is essentially a ground based game set in a world that has become increasingly three dimensional. The Air game has been toned down to keep E:A focussed on the ground game, and especially to avoid air warfare becoming too dominant a theme. Consequently aircraft are intended to be vulnerable to ground AA, and their weapon ranges are kept intentionaly short.

Skimmers are viewed to be more like Helos because their speed (100-200 kts) is much closer to that of ground vehicles than aircraft - consequently they "loiter" around the battlefield and can be engaged by all ground forces. OTOH aircraft moving at sub-sonic to supersonic speeds (500kts - Mach 2+) are over the battlefield for very short times (around 1 minute to cross the table in a 15 minute turn). They are not intended to "loiter with intent", and can only be engaged by specialist weaponry.

IMHO the A10 and Hokum are probably the best comparisons to "skimming" Vultures - but note that these aircraft are armoured precisely to be able to survive battlefield "loitering" and close engagements of the kind described by LoDown and suscribed to by Hena.

*Note this is conceptual*
A house rule alternative for these kind of vehicles / weapons might be to treat them like a cross between aircraft and ground vehicles:-
- They may be kept off-table in reserve where they activate and behave like aircraft.
- When activated, they enter the friendly table edge and behave like ground troops (ie normal movement, firing etc).
- To reflect their manoeuverability, like Eldar they can choose to fire at any point during their activation.
- They only have a single shot weapon, but can re-arm if they can fly off a friendly table edge.
- When they fly off the friendly table edge they revert to "aircraft" status, so to re-enter the battlefield, they must beat the number of BMs acquired etc. ?
Note, If this is adopted, the weapon ranges should be reduced accordingly (by at least 15cms).
*Note this is conceptual*




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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:41 pm 
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My apologies if this comes off poorly, but I have seen to many mistakes in this thread to sit quietly.

Anyone who tries to compare Epic to real life is making a huge mistake just thinking the idea, and then propogates more errors as they go.  There are so many fundamental differences between the WH40K Universe and Real Life that certain comparisons are meaningless.  Compound that with GW game developers' warped perception of warfare, and the allowances that have been made to allow for different units (like artillery and armor) to operate on the same game table and you get a game that is a characiture of warfare, not a real wargame.

But there are two real deal-breakers that make comparisons meaningless: No scale between centimeters in the game and kilometers in Real Life, and the lack of ambient conditions rules (darkness and night fighting, extreme cold or heat, rain, snow, wind, etc) in the game.  Now, the lack of scale is probably intentional, because once you declare that so-much distance in the game is equal to so much distance in Real Life and you immediately create arguments over how realistic something is in the game.  (Ask a Classic Battletech player about the range of machine guns in the game.)  And the idea of GW cluttering up a simplistic game with detailed rules is heretical these days.

If you really want to try to draw comparisons between Epic and Real Life, you should be looking at a variety of different time periods, depending on what you are talking about.

Artillery in Epic is a joke, roughly comparable to WW1 artillery.  Most of this is due to the limited range (modern artillery would never be represented on the board unless it was in the process of being over-run), the abstraction of it for simplicity, and the desire to have it actually on the board for variety.

Armored Vehicles in Epic are a bit of a mixed bag.  The 75cm range of LRuss Battlecannons make them super-snipers, yet that same tank mounts advanced weapons in WW1 -> early WW2 era sponsons.

And infantry?  Well, it seems like real anti-tank missile launchers have disappeared over the last 40,000 years...

While the Vulture and Valkyrie are close approximations of helicopters, I wouldn't use that approximation of helicopters as the basis for arguing for or against anything in this game.

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Otterman
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:01 pm 
Yes. Please consume the real-world analogies carefully. They can have nasty aftertaste.
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:25 pm 
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I agree with Blarg in many ways. ?Drawing approximations of range for the Vultures is fine based on relative ranges of real life weaponry, but just leave it at that. ?The fact is there are a lot of inconsistencies in the game and we ultimately have to do what will provide the best balance for the game.

With the exception of the planetfalling, a Vulture should fly similar to a Thunderhawk. ?But while Vultures can stop and turn on a dime, Thunderhawks have to take off in the same direction that they landed in (I guess V-TOL technology never made it to the best equipped fighters in the galaxy). :)

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:03 pm 
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You guys did your homework !  But to simplify matters, the way we play it anything that is a Skimmer can pop-up like a helo, fire at a target and go back down under cover ...  Including Thunderhawks, Vultures, etc. ...  Aircraft can only do CAS, fly on, Engaged by Flak, attack target, fly off ...  :D

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Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:08 am 
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It's definately nice to see some good well though out discussion (whether I agree with it or not). ?My comment on what I've read - Vultures and Valkyries are, from a fluff standpoint - very close to helicopters. ?I think if you're going to make comparisons to anything real life - that's the best take.

I'm not sure i agree with the sliding scale of ranges - just doesn't make sense - range should be range. ?Ranges for weapons being logarithmic doesn't make sense in my mind - as a unit on foot moving 60 cm hasn't just miraculously covered X miles. ?And then when it moves another 15 cm that would mean it just covered a total of 2X. ?Just doesn't sit right with me (personally).

The point about comparing technolgy levels - I could buy that. ?Maybe Epic artillery isn't as good as modern day equivalents (I don't know to be honest, never seen background indicating anything to that point). ?But obviously some things have gotten more high tech (laser weapons, multi-meltas, orbital barages) - so I'm not sure how I feel about that arguement?
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Ginger
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:45 am 
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Regarding ranges, I was working from (fallible) memory and overstated the details a bit, but the principles still hold true - check out Jervis' original views in Neal's post in the Vultures poll thread. The 'elastic ranges' principle is a bit tricky to get your brain around at first, and obviously does have some interesting side effects (shrinking terrain anyone?). However it does allow us to model 'deep strikes' against artillery etc and also models the way troops get much more cautious / bogged down as they engage the enemy.

The real point behind the post was to challenge whether Vultures were working in a reasonable way or not. To achieve this, we can compare against other units to ensure a level of internal balance, but it is also nice to consider real life as a measure of reasonableness. While Blarg and the others are obviously right that this is a much simplified mechanic, it still helps to keep some vision of the intended effects in the back of the mind - hence L4's nice distinction between skimmers loitering and "popping up" to shoot, Vs the fleeting glimpses of aircraft on CAS, performing a strike run and skiddadling.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:13 am 
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Well in our minds the Epic is a hi-tech WWII. ?A lot of you Boyz, made good points and as I said, ya did your homework. ?Or in some case, were in the Military. And again we use most things that were or are labelled skimmers - function like helicopter Gunships. Move low under cover (Nap-of-the-Earth flying/terrain masking), get behind cover, "Pop-up" (like a AH1, AH-64, etc.), shoot and go back under cover. Regardless, that is how 'Copter Gunships, work in real life. So we use SM T/hawk, Sqt Iron Eagles, IG Vult & Valks, etc. in those roles. ?We also use a lot of the Eldar and Tau AFVs in the same manner. ?I even have old SM Jet Bikes and use them that way, along with Land Speeders. As Ginger noted, and clearly understands were we are coming from, Gunships vs. CAS Aircraft.   As far as ranges, generally they are off. As many here noted. Most Epic scale Artillery pieces could fire the length of a realworld football field. In the real world, FA, like 155mm, 8inch, etc., can fire 15 miles or more. ?So with Epic/6mm SF we have to make some concessions/exceptions/etc. ... E:A is light years ahead of 40K/Epic in 40K scale - Apocalypse, in the range conundrum and all other areas, for that matter. ?So we had to make a number changes to put somethings, in our minds, right ... :D   I have the "advantage" of my over a decades experience as a US Army Infantry Officer. I have a "working knowledge" of Combined Arms, Air Assault Ops, calling in mortars, Artillery, Gunships, CAS, Naval Gun Fire, etc., etc. ... so I can "see" how it should "fit in" on the 6mm gaming table ... based on my past ... :)




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Chaplain Leviticus
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:03 am 
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I spent several years in Air Cav; there are certainly more than one fashion in which to use rotary wing aircraft/helos, etc... whatever name floats your boat.  Ours were used primarily as close range tank-hunters and close range air support for our ground operations.  We would recon ahead and call in targets to packs of helos sitting low under tree cover.  They would move NOE to a similar position and launch a pop-up attack from the best vector we provide to strike enemy positions.  This si just a brief example and we could certainly write a whole field manual concerning helicopter tactics and uses, but you get the idea.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:48 am 
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Yes, that's basically what I'm talking about ... And inturn, again I think T/Hawks, Vultures, etc., could/should be used in a similar manner ... And of course terrain permitting, like in the Desert, a Gunship armed with TOWs or Hellfire Missiles could take out a target in excess of 3 KMs ... :D

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Ginger
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:27 pm 
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Hence my suggestion of a slight change to the conceptual rules to allow some units to use all three modes of operation:-
- Ground rules:- the usual ground movement, LOS fire etc
- Skimmer rules:- Faster than ground and adds pop-up, but retains ground movement activation, LOS, terrain cover etc
- Air rules :- High speed movement to anywhere on the table, no LOS etc. Can disengage in the end phase to refuel / re-arm.

The point we are all making here is that conceptually it seems reasonable for us to allow some units to change between all three styles of movement :- so for example a THawk could make a high speed movement to a point on the table where it "converted" to a skimmer to loiter behind cover on OW. Next turn, it moves to another part of the table (using normal ground activation) to land and perform its assault etc before disengaging as an A/c again. Obviously the current restriction on troops embarking / disembarking would remain. I might add that all A/c from WWI to now suffer from the same issues of limited ammo / weaponry. Consequently while "Aircraft" get the extra speed, they should be restricted to a single strike before having to retire to re-arm. OTOH, "Skimming" tanks have greater ammo to last all game, but can't fly at high speeds (nor would they want to). A final note would be that reducing the apparent ranges of aircraft weaponry as viewed on the tabletop is a neat way to model the difficulties of target acuisition at high speeds and the usual steep attack maneouvers required. All this is a long way round of suggesting some relatively simple modifications to the rules and unit definitions to fall in line with real life military experiences.

These simple changes would include :-
- Making "Aircraft" a unit note together with "Fighter", "Fighter-Bomber" etc so the unit "Type" then reverts to a description of its armour (Inf, LV or AV) describing the weaponry that can hit it.
- Players declaring the status of the unit at the end of it's movement / firing (landed, "skimming", or flying) to ?determine the weapons that can target it, and also the range of it's own weaponry (-15cms if in A/c mode).
- Allowing A/c to fly off the table either by disengaging or 'skimming' to re-fuel and re-arm. And so on.
(This would also provide the explanation why transports disengaging as A/c need to "fly" 30 cms ahead before turning, while allowing them to turn freely and "skim" away instead.)

As for range conversions and long-range artillery barrages etc, I couldn't agree more. Even WWI artillery regularly fired over 10-15 miles, and the various "Paris guns" lobbed shells in the region of 60 miles (without any degree of accuracy I might add), so there is no way to model this directly to the tabletop apart from this (rather elegant) mechanism which I agree is far better than many other rulesets.

A final rant - IMHO direct fire should be restricted to around 5-6 miles (90cm) because of the curvature of the planet if nothing else (I am ignoring mundane things like blocked LOS, battlefield conditions, weather, etc :p ) and the lack of a FO to direct shoots also bugs me greatly - but hey this is a (very) simplified mechanic afterall ?:D

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Soren
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:43 pm 
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To be honest I don?t care about the comparsion of Vultures and possible modern units (Apache, Eurocopter whatever). Unit stats have fit the game, not any modern army tactics (of whatever army this may be). I?m pretty sure that there will not be a rule change because Apache only hit targets on 3km. If this would be the reason, it will be my last day in E:A. "Realism" is not the word a sci-fi game has to use for justifying a rule.

The only reason I accept is playability. Therefore it?s pretty irrelevant if a any modern helicopter hits a tank, aircraft, elephant or mouse on a specific range.

my 0,002 cent

Soren




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Irondeath
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:49 pm 
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Gameplay is the reason why we are looking into this at all.

120cm AT2+ is just plain ridiculous, 2x One-Shot doesn?t balance it. They are a no-brainer if there ever was one...

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Helicopters and real life
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:28 pm 
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I was not suggesting that there should be any rule changes. I was just stating a fact about ranges. We play 6mm Sci-fi with a modicum of "realism" that works for us. And that may not work for others ... ?We don't play Epic from "the Book", never have, we modify things to suit us. ?And I agree, playability is important, and making weapons "too deadly" "kills" that. :;): And as I said, we see Epic as a Hi-tech version of WWII. I don't think anyone said, change the rules so a Vulture is as deadly as a AH-64 ... ?I was just "sighting" some concepts to consider - good or bad ... ?We've been down this trail many, many times before - what the rules say, what works for some does not for others, Sci-fi vs. "realism vs. playability vs. etc., etc. ... ? ? ? So the 1st Rule of what Tas coined as the "Legion 4 School of Tactical Reality" (L4SoTR) - DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU ! (DWWFY ... or the Ork Version DWWFU !) ?:;): No one, not the =][=, not Imperial Commissars, not Little Grays, etc., etc., are going to come to your gaming table and tell you how you and your crew should play with Toy Soldiers ! :laugh: ? What works for me based on my knowlegde, experience, predilections, day of the week, etc., may not work for others. I think by discussing ideas/concepts and how we all play the game is a good idea ... and if someone does not want to play it that way - DWWFY/DWWFU ! :alien:




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