Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut

 Post subject: Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:34 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
Quote: 

Infringement of Games Workshop Limited's Intellectual Property Rights

Games Workshop Limited has for some time been engaged in the business of designing, manufacturing and marketing: hobby board games; war games; models; miniatures; and associated products and in the course of this business has acquired and registered a large number of copyrights and other intellectual property rights.

It has recently come to our attention that much of the information hosted on your website, www.fumbbl.com (the "Website"), provides us with cause for concern as it conflicts with our intellectual property rights. Although we are confident that the Website is a well-intentioned resource, we are acutely aware of the need to assert our intellectual property rights. Specifically, our causes for concern are that:

* the Website contains copies of Blood Bowl statistics and rules;
* tje Java Bowl programme contains various pieces of GW Blood Bowl art including the Blood Bowl pitch and Blood Bowl logo; and
* the Java Bowl programme uses all the Blood Bowl rules and statistics for each model.

As you may appreciate, GW has a strict policy of protecting all of its intellectual property rights. To this end, we must insist that these materials are removed from the Website.

By way of background to our concerns, copyright is a right that vests in the creator as soon as the material in question is created, in this case the Blood Bowl game. Therefore having created the game and accomapnying rules/statistics GW owns the copyright in them making it an offence for others to cause them, or products substantially based on them, to be published.

Similarly it is an offence to trade off registered trademarks belonging to others, in this case `Blood Bowl´. This is of particular concern to GW as fiven the content of your website, and the numerous and explicit references to Blood Bowl, there is a very real possibility that people could assume there to be some connection between your site and GW. Despite the presence of a modest disclaimer that GW is unable to accept as not only does it pose a financial risk, but there is the potential for harm to be caused to the GW brand.

It is the usual policy of GW to always enforce its rights against any party infringing its intellectual property rights by means of appropriate legal proceedings. However in the present circumstances we will be willing to refrain from such action should you agree to remove the aforementioned items from the Website.

Therefore, we would be grateful if within fourteen days of the date of this letter you would procide written undertakings, in a form acceptable to us, that you:

1. have received and understood the contents of this letter:
2. will cease and desist from any activities which infringes GW's intellectual property rights;
3. remove the Java Bowl link, and any materials subject to GW's copyright, from your site; and
4. confirm by return that you will not infringe GW's intellectual property rights at any time in the future.

If you are in any doubt as to the contents of this letter we suggest that you seek independant legal advice, or alternatively should you need clarification as to what you can and cannot do with GW's intellectual policy we refer you to out Intellectual Property Policy (http://legal.games-workshop.com).

We duly look forward to your anticipated compliance without recourse to more formal methods of enforcement.


Yours faithfully

Games Workshop


Reckon they are doing each game, probably alphabetically? :) So after Blood Bowl...

Personally I'd just transfer the stuff to Niel in Bangladesh and send them an email saying get stuffed :)

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:30 am
Posts: 115
Location: USA
Or any other country where enforcement would be a hassle, if non-existent... :laugh:

To me, it would seem if one of the sites ever chose to fight back, the cost to GW for litigation would eventually become prohibitive. I mean, with the current world economy, how much can they really budget to their legal department for fighting questionable battles? Now, in this instance, the posting of stats could be seen as damaging to their trademark as it could cause a loss of income. However by posting these stats/rules freely on their website, they do make it easier for someone to challenge that their is neither tarnishment nor dilution of the Bloodbowl trademark.

I'd think that the copyright issue could be resolved as "Fair Use", considering the manner in which GW has made the material available?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:09 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
What arguement do they have though when you can stick a link to the free online stats on their site?

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:16 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:52 pm
Posts: 4262
The logical next step for GW if someone did go down that defence would be to remove the online docs.

Be careful what you wish for.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:16 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ Nov. 13 2009, 14:09 )

What arguement do they have though when you can stick a link to the free online stats on their site?

The argument they have is that the link does not violate the terms of the license they are granting.  Replication of the copyrighted material does.

There's more detail in the "cease and desist notes aplenty" thread.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:51 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:30 am
Posts: 115
Location: USA
Well, the "licensing agreement" that is "accepted" to view the document can be seen as questionable. I haven't read it lately, but I'm sure that there are caveats about personal use, and not reproducing the material within.

Also, they could take down the documents, but that doesn't erase the fact that they were available. What's important, in that regard, is that the documents were ever made available freely.

All-in-all, it would not be cut and dried. It would cost both sides enough money that neither would likely want to pursue it, though obviously GW's resources are vaster than the site owner.

Now would be the time for someone to register www.pagw.com

"People Against Games Workshop"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:06 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Quote: (arklite @ Nov. 13 2009, 14:51 )

Well, the "licensing agreement" that is "accepted" to view the document can be seen as questionable.

This is not accurate.  As the license is a "take it or leave it" proposition that GW drafted, the legal premise is that all benefit of doubt in the contract verbiage is given to the licensee.  However, the fact is by agreeing to it the person agrees and explicitly recognizes GW's copyright.  To the extent the license agreement reiterates standard IP law, e.g. GW owns the copyright and you can only reproduce it as they allow, there is no question at all.

Quote: 

Also, they could take down the documents, but that doesn't erase the fact that they were available. What's important, in that regard, is that the documents were ever made available freely.

No, that's not important at all.  The cost of the license is immaterial.  It's existence and the enforcement by GW of the terms maintains the legitimacy of their IP.

Quote: 

All-in-all, it would not be cut and dried.

The underlying copyright and trademark issues are completely cut and dried.  GW owns them.  Period.  Nothing about the license terms or the price of the license changes that.

The part that is not cut and dried is where GW is taking an expansive approach to their rights and claiming protections not granted under law.  

Quote: 

It would cost both sides enough money that neither would likely want to pursue it, though obviously GW's resources are vaster than the site owner.

That's not how it works.  If it is a legitimate claim, several thousand dollars to maintain their IP is nothing.  OTOH, where their claims are clearly beyond either IP law or the licensing terms, the roles would be flipped and it should take relatively little money to defend and cost GW a lot to press the claim.

Again, more detail in the other threads where I talk about the specific allegations being made and lay out the rules regarding alleged copyright and trademark infringement.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:11 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5682
Location: Australia
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ Nov. 13 2009, 21:34 )

Personally I'd just transfer the stuff to Niel in Bangladesh and send them an email saying get stuffed :)

LOL

Now that is some funny ****.  :laugh:

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:10 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:17 am
Posts: 720
Location: Agri-World-NZ77
Neal, what is your take on implementing the rules in a piece of software? Is that copyright infringement?

Also, what about using trademarks in a computer game? Let's say you created your own graphics and rules but used names like 'Blood Angel' or whatever?

_________________
Uti possidetis, ita possideatis.
May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
An online epic force creator:
Armyforge


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:39 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Quote: (adam77 @ Nov. 13 2009, 22:10 )

Neal, what is your take on implementing the rules in a piece of software? Is that copyright infringement?

It depends on the implementation.  My understanding is that rules mechanics cannot be copyrighted, so the copyright should not be an issue with respect to the pure mechanics.  However, there may be trademarked terms or other bits of copyrighted information in it.

I'm not a code monkey, but it seems to my non-technical self that the JavaBowl program should be modifiable so that it is non-infringing.

It might be possible that rule mechanics could be patented as an algorithm, but I don't know anything about algorithm patents so that's pure speculation.

Quote: 

Also, what about using trademarks in a computer game? Let's say you created your own graphics and rules but used names like 'Blood Angel' or whatever?

There is a long checklist of issues which determine whether the use of a trademark is infringing.  The primary one is whether it is likely to be confused in the marketplace for a product from or endorsed by the trademark holder.  If the "Blood Angel" in the computer program were close to GW's space marines, it might cause confusion.  But like I said, there's a long checklist and several items can be subjective or situation specific.

It's also infringement to do anything to damage a brand.  Damage comes in 2 categories, dilution and tarnishment.

Dilution refers to challenging a product's identity in the marketplace.  If a famous brand name is associated with a product in the public consciousness, another company using the same name, even if they were completely different products, could negatively impact the value of the first brand.  For example, a car company comes out with a line of performance parts called "Oreo" because that's the designer's last name - obviously, there is no confusion with Oreo cookies, but if Oreo car parts became an established brand name it would harm Nabisco's trademark.

Tarnishment is association with some sort of negative publicity.  Using a trademark in the URL for a porn site would be an obvious infringement, for instance.

That's a bunch of background to say that if the use of "Blood Angel" could in some way be considered to dilute or tarnish GW's trademark it would be infringing even it would never be mistaken for GW's product.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:35 am 
Speaking from experience, there's always a way to contest a 'patented' piece of software. My company has endured 2 grueling lawsuits involving patent disputes, much to the benefit of the lawyers on both sides. A software patent dispute is a good way for a large company to attrite a smaller one through court costs.

As a software engineer, I do not believe algorithms should be patentable, copyrightable, whatever.

However... one trick that seems to circumvent many challenges is to make a program itself programmable via a configuration or settings file. With the right settings, it can emulate a particular rules set.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:15 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:07 am
Posts: 888
Location: Gulf Coast, Texas
Words cannot describe my lack of enthusiasm to play a GW game; There is just no end to their shenanigans.

:boo:

_________________


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:02 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:17 am
Posts: 720
Location: Agri-World-NZ77
Quote: (Otterman @ Nov. 14 2009, 12:35 )

However... one trick that seems to circumvent many challenges is to make a program itself programmable via a configuration or settings file. With the right settings, it can emulate a particular rules set.

Yes, Vassal would be a good example of this  :)

_________________
Uti possidetis, ita possideatis.
May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
An online epic force creator:
Armyforge


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:13 pm 
Quote: (adam77 @ Nov. 13 2009, 21:02 )

Quote: (Otterman @ Nov. 14 2009, 12:35 )

However... one trick that seems to circumvent many challenges is to make a program itself programmable via a configuration or settings file. With the right settings, it can emulate a particular rules set.

Yes, Vassal would be a good example of this  :)

Prezactly.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Fumbbl takes a cease and desist to the gut
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:22 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:41 pm
Posts: 1480
Location: Gothenburg,Sweden
But wasn't such lists taken down?

_________________
It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.
- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net