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Recasts!
Buy the lot for what he's asking 11%  11%  [ 4 ]
Don't buy it at all 9%  9%  [ 3 ]
Buy it, but offer only what the legit figs are worth 43%  43%  [ 15 ]
Report him to GW and let the Inquisitors sort him out 17%  17%  [ 6 ]
Other (see replies) 20%  20%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 35

Recasts!
nealhunt
 Post subject: Recasts!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:58 pm 
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Typically, if you infringe on IP you can be sued for actual damages plus punitive damages.  In the case of a non-existent or OOP mini, the actual damages are going to be non-existent but you could still be sued for punitive damages.

In practice, the small dollar amount means that unless you are selling them it's not worth the cost of a lawyer.  A large amount of illicit production would probably generate a cease and desist letter but no suit.  Only if you're actively making significant money is there any real chance of a lawsuit that might have punitive damages attached.

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illuvitar
 Post subject: Recasts!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:22 am 
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all right i'm gonna rant a little about g.w. and there so called I.P. i dont disagree for a second that theyed sue someone for recasting figs or making castings of models that dont exist but are there "I.P."
however ive always been of the opinion that games workshop has been so popular because they know how to steal from all the best sci-fi/fantasy authors and artists. so here follows a list of people living and dead who damn well should sue G.W. just so they will shut up. (ive wanted to do this on the specialist game board for so long its not funny.) ?:D
gieger, the afore mentioned aliens
robert hienlien (space marines are just cap troopers with an attitude)
?j.r.r. tolkien (long , long before they bought the rights to the line. whats the diff between a tree man and and ent, besides the afformantioned attitude, and blood thirsters and balrogs dont even have that much diff. )
michael moorcock, the man should OWN G.W., i cant even make a list, they stole everything from this man, everything
fritz lieber, robert e. howard, frank herbert , whoever the hell did the terminator designs for the movies,frank frizeta(but who hasnt tried to rip off the master!) ?and on and on and on
?now dont get me wrong, im sure the origanlal authors of rogue trader and the origanl fantasy battle book where just really cool guys, otherwise they wouldnt have read all my favorite books ! :D ?and they did some awsome original artwork, and make really cool figs which they deserve some great profit for im sure. but when they start bithcing about there original IDEAS and there I.P. i tell ya trully folks, i just cant stop laughin :devil:




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Recasts!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:32 am 
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illuvitar
 Post subject: Recasts!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:36 am 
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uh oh, i hope he isnt mad at me. nice space marine, good space marine. i didnt mean it , really. :)

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Recasts!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:39 am 
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Neat !  :;):

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Kotrin
 Post subject: Recasts!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:06 pm 
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I stand by my point: if you create, cast and sell (under a non-conflicting name) a non-existent version of a GW miniature at Epic scale, you risk NOTHING. Or even a closely looking miniature (case in point here, with the Troop Lander of Miniatures Scenery. And it's 28mm. The W40K miniature exists in Forgeworld Range, and the Epic scale too!)

However, I never told they won't dare intimidate you. But don't mess agressive letters from GW layers with an actual trial.

Note too that it's forbidden even to use parts (Bitz) of GW miniature to create a new model. Finally, there's still potential issues for symbols present in a miniature (Imperial eagle, ultramarine symbol, etc) if GW registered them.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Recasts!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:09 pm 
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Image fixed. :D

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Otterman
 Post subject: Recasts!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:13 pm 

(Kotrin @ Dec. 13 2006,07:06)
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Finally, there's still potential issues for symbols present in a miniature (Imperial eagle, ultramarine symbol, etc) if GW registered them.

The ultramarine symbol is registered? That's wacky. When I saw my very first space marine I said to the nephews, "Hey, they put the omega on upside down."
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Kotrin
 Post subject: Recasts!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:41 pm 
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Okay perhaps it wasn't the best example...

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Recasts!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:53 pm 
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(illuvitar @ Dec. 12 2006,18:22)
QUOTE
all right i'm gonna rant a little about g.w. and there so called I.P. i dont disagree for a second that theyed sue someone for recasting figs or making castings of models that dont exist but are there "I.P."
however ive always been of the opinion that games workshop has been so popular because they know how to steal from all the best sci-fi/fantasy authors and artists.

I agree with you 100%, Illuvitar. GW has been ripping of multiple writers, and history, for decades.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Recasts!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:06 pm 
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(illuvitar @ Dec. 12 2006,23:22)
QUOTE
gieger... hienlien... tolkien... moorcock... lieber... frazeta

Those guys didn't come up with their core concepts, either.  They just put their own spin on them.  It's their unique take on the concept that's copyrighted.

The cyborg concept predated Geiger's work by decades.  Heinlein has pretty much nothing new.  Tolkien certainly didn't invent elves, dwarves or orcs.  Moorcock didn't invent the idea of stealing souls.  Etc., etc.

Just because the idea of man-machine combinations predated Geiger doesn't mean that Geiger doesn't deserve legitimate credit and IP for his biomorphic designs (I've blanked on the word he coined for them).

You can argue that GW's work is lacking in artistic merit or that it's highly derivative but neither of those things affects their ownership of the IP they generated.  It's their spin.  They own it just like the guys you listed own their take on the legends/concepts they used.

No one can sue you for making something that's part of the general imagination.  For example, using Kotrin's drop pod link, GW can't sue for that.  The concept of dropping troops from orbit in disposable craft is ubiquitous in sci-fi literature.  A competing drop pod only infringes if it integrates recognizable stylistic elements unique to GW's models.

====

Kotrin:  It's pretty rare that I say this, but you are just plain wrong.

Selling a copyrighted mini at a different scale is plainly infringing on IP, regardless of whether it is in production.  I don't know where you live but in the US you would be subject to cease and desist orders, imprisonment for contempt of court if you ignored the C&D, civil suit for actual and punitive damages (yes, there can be actual damages for a mini not in print), court costs when you lose the lawsuit (you will), and depending on jurisdiction and dollar amounts involved potentially legislated damages or fines on top of the civil suit and court costs.

As I said earlier, in practical terms the cost of enforcement may outweigh the benefit to the company but that does not mean there is no risk.  A handful of bootlegs for personal use won't generally garner any attention for multiple reasons.  However, even if the net financial balance on a specific case is negative for the company in the short term, the long term results of not zealously defending their IP could still make it worth it to prosecute an actual sales operation.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Recasts!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:28 pm 
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Good points, Neal. However, I think there is a difference between putting a "spin" on a common sci-fi theme, like cyborgs for example, and outright stealing, as GW did to Moorcock.




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illuvitar
 Post subject: Recasts!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:56 pm 
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neil, i respect your opinions and obvious intellect, however
if you can say that heinlien didnt come up with anything new,  it's my turn to say your just plain wrong. maybe he didnt invent powered armor, but im willing to bet he did. the man started writing sci-fi in the early fiftys and is one of those guys who invented things we have today before they existed, you know one of those sci-fi authors who inspired real life inventors and engineers. please give the man some respect. in moorcock's case the similarities between melnibon'e and uthuan are just sick, and i really think he was the first person to use chaos with a capital C, if you get my drift. now your right that alot of what these authors did has it's origins in myth and legend, and i did say that the original G.W. concepts should be lauded for there artistic creativity, heh thats why im still addicted after all these years, however when i hear all this talk about what they own or dont, yep still laughing. dont get me wrong tho, i dont advicate theft of there original art work. i understand the law protects them from being blatantly riped off and i agree with it, i just think they get way too high and mighty about things like recasting oop minis and such considering there own obvious "borrowing". but perhaps i'm wrong, maybe thats the only way they can do bussiness, but i dont have to like it. :)

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Kotrin
 Post subject: Recasts!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:22 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Dec. 13 2006,15:06)
QUOTE
[quote="illuvitar,Dec. 12 2006,23:22"]Kotrin: ?It's pretty rare that I say this, but you are just plain wrong.

Selling a copyrighted mini at a different scale is plainly infringing on IP, regardless of whether it is in production.

No offense taken.

Mmmh, maybe I'm wrong, or maybe I'm just misunderstood ?:alien:

I didn't mention an *duplicate* miniature in a different scale, but a *similar* miniature in a different scale. By similar, I state: different pose, different distinctive features (no imperial eagle, etc) and of course, a different name.

The point is not to make a copy, but to create something new. If tomorrow I come with Epic Skaven minitures, ratmen at 6mm scale, and I call them "swurds", what may GW do? They are different than their fantasy counterparts, even Warmaster version. And they'd have to show how, prior to my production, they already had a worldwide copyright on the concept of rat-man miniatures no matter the scale. Good luck GW. Heck, tomorrow, I would even be able to create Space-Rats with the same style than Fantasy Skavens, but with huge rifles in their hands.

Look at Felix Paniagua's website, then his Avatars of War section. He's a professional, working for GW, and he fears nothing with his obvious Dwarf Trollslayer (look at the hair!) nor his Ork Shaman. He sells them himself, not for GW. And they're both 28mm.

Same goes if I want to create an Epic-Scale version of the Sisters of Battles, Necrons and other unexistent miniatures at that scale, providing, naturally, that I'm not duplicating, but creating something new.

They couldn't prevent alternate product lines of miniatures for Tolkien's Middle-Earth. They couldn't prevent alternate orks, goblins, humans, marauder warriors, lizards or anything. Can you believe GW's view of Imperial Guard or Necrons prevent the success of AT-43?

Copyright and IP rights are much more restricted than the common perception we have of it (thanks to a heavy marketing of GW's stance on them just to scare the hell out of any competitor). You can't just sue anybody for anything, as they'd like us to believe. Copyright just means no right to copy, in all or in parts. Hopefully, it doesn't means everyone's imagination has to be sterilized.




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illuvitar
 Post subject: Recasts!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:32 pm 
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well spoken sir.

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