surely it would be simple enough to ask people to be honourable and fair? or perhaps limit selling stuff to members with minimum post counts?

if people are upfront about it 'I'm trying to get the absolute best price for this CI/forgeworld doodad/whatever, so if people offer me more, I'll sell it to them' I'd have no problem (I simply wouldn't trade with them)

The guidelines for the forum request that all trades are done 'in the open' and I think that members should remember this, if someone comes to you via PM and offers more, either ignore it, or post 'member x has now offered me £50 for the item, any other offers?'

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I agree and unfortunately that's how some people project themselves. But not everyone is like that and if i agree to trade/sell some stuff to someone then they are getting it. I might ask a couple days to think to see if i like the trade before i agree, but i wouldn't back out for a little more money if i already agreed. But that's how i personally want to portray myself as a man of honor and integrity, not everyone has that type of moral fiber. Unfortunately limitations dont force people to trade the way you want them too it just hampers them, they'll always figure a way, to be seedy/shady. Your also punishing the good traders that prefer to get a couple quotes before they sell. It's an honor system and that is why we have the bad trader thread, put them on blast and never deal with them again.

I think that if you want the highest price you can get, stick it on eBay - you'll reach a far bigger audience than here at Taccoms. That said, if someone wants to do a "silent bid" auction, fair dos, but I wouldn't personally be interested.

As for bad traders - people will be d-bags, it's just the way it is, which is why I usually only trade with people I "know" (funny to say that) on here, unless I'm trading something I don't really care about losing. There's no really way to prevent trade and sale problems as it's an honour system as blindhorizon wrote, although I'm fairly/ too trusting and I've had very few problems.

Now, people on bartertown saying they want x, y and z, asking me to go to the PO for a postage quote, the whole shebang and then never getting back to me, now that pisses me off. Bloody bartertown, grumble grumble

I am with Jaggedtoothgrin. A seller should be able to sell to whoever he wants, however he wants. If somebody offers him $100 for a rare model and then his best buddy say, "Hey, I really want that! I'll give you $10" I am all for that seller giving it to his friend. The person who wanted to buy the model for $100 might feel slighted and wonder why the deal didn't go through, and he has every right to gripe and post some unpleasant description, but that's okay.

Personally I like having the freedom to not sell something to somebody, especially if I don't know who they are or if something sets off my Spidey sense.

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

The question isn't whether the system of regulating trades can work. The question is should it work. It is a matter of preference based on an individual's perception of fairness. IMO it is not the business of the forum to regulate my trades to meet somebody else's sense of fairness. If someone doesn't like how I operate, they don't have to do business with me.

Besides, we have a thread for good and bad traders. The bad trader list is very short indeed while the good trader list is huge. With a track record like that for this forum, why we would muddy the waters with a bunch of unenforceable rules is beyond me.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Works well on Wargamerau.

If you want an auction, don't do forum sales.

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So Mosc, you're happy to let someone keep escalating the price out beyond you for something you know you can't get elsewhere because they can? That's not wasting your time and effort?

I'm not "happy" about it but it is my choice to do (or not do) business with said person and his choice to be a dirt bag. It isn't somebody else's problem and I don't feel a need to regulate everybody to satisfy my gripes in life.

It's like the ordinance they passed in San Francisco forbidding toys in McDonald's Happy Meals. The guy who pushed it through got tired of his daughter having all these Happy Meal toys and felt it was bad for kids to tempt them. Some people think that is a great idea. I think it is pathetic we have to pass an ordinance because somebody is too lazy to say no to his fat kid.

What does that have to do with our trades? Nothing, and yet everything. Every 'rule' we put in place imposes upon everyone else to some degree. While it may work out great for one person, experience tells me it will make things inconvenient for five people.

Practically, how do we enforce such a rule? Ban them from the forum? How do we keep a person from pulling a trade if the price doesn't go as high as he wants? Who are you to say John Smith isn't telling the truth when the SM Army he is selling suddenly has an "accident" right after the highest price offered for it is $50 less than he wanted and it is no longer available? Who would be in charge of enforcing any set of rules we have on trades? Would Cybershadow even allow Tactical to turn into a Bartertown type of environment? What if the person who offers the most money or meets whatever criteria there is for the trade turns out to be an untrustworthy person? Are you going to ask me to sell to somebody I don't want to? What are you going to do when I say "no"?

This doesn't even begin to involve the variables of forumware...

I appreciate that some people get burned on trades. It sucks. I get it. And I admire the good intentions, but the number of people who have gotten screwed on trades on Tactical Wargames has got to be less than ten and is probably less than five. Compare that to the THOUSANDS of trades that have taken place here for years and the percentage chance of things going south is remote. You are delving into an area involving money which is best left between buyer and seller, and let the buyer beware.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

What about you trying to sell something in the open you've been trying to get rid of. You want a fair price and you find someone willing to pay $50, so your excited and you agree. Then someone pm's said person and says "hey i got that for $45". Then your buyer backs out and you can't sell your item. It goes both ways, there really is no way to make everything completely fair.

Ok Mosc, I have another story for you.

This is regarding Forumware but the outcome is what's important.

I placed an order with a TacComms person (I am not naming this person and that person does not need to come on here and defend themselves - this is just another example of what can happen and leave a buyer in a bad situation).
I consider it to have been a reasonably substantial amount of money. Registered postage was paid for aswell (at the insistence of the seller).

Payment was sent and then I waited and waited and waited.

After over a month had gone by (probably nearer 2 from memory), I PM'd the seller and asked if he could let me know the date my order was sent. He couldn't provide the exact date. Furthermore, he couldn't provide the registered postage details (they had been misplaced).

When I asked if my order could be re-sent I was told that I would have to pay for another complete order. This seemed unreasonable to me and then I was informed that the seller would not do business with me anymore. So that left me out of pocket and with nothing to show for my money.

I contacted the seller again and managed to negotiate a deal where I would pay half the cost of a new order and pay again for registered postage. I asked to be informed as soon as the parcel was posted.

And then I waited, and waited, and waited.

No communication.

After another few weeks, I contacted the seller and asked about the delay. I was informed that my order had been sent weeks ago...
I was provided the tracking details and followed it up. It turns out they were the wrong tracking details...

To lose one package in the mail is unfortunate (something that has never happened to me), to lose 2 seems very odd.
The inability of the seller to provide the tracking details for either package is unfortunate.

The upshot of all this was that I was out of pocket over $100AUS and had nothing to show for it.

Should I have posted the sellers name on the bad trader list?
At best, he's just guilty of not keeping the tracking details for me to follow up.
At worst, he took my money and didn't even bother sending the goods (I do not believe this to be the case but how can I possibly know? ).

This sort of thing does happen. It is not fair and there really should be a way for the members of a forum to follow this sort of thing up. We are dealing with peoples money (sometimes a lot of it - we just placed a group order with a Forumware seller for for $500AUS ). This should be regulated.

*Again, the seller need not come here and answer this post. In fact I'd rather they didn't. If I had a problem with it, I would have taken it further at the time.

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That is horrible treatment onyx, i for one would put that person's name on the bad trader list. I myself would want to know who it is so i don't order from them. Also when i go to buy from people i make sure to tell them i've heard horror stories of long waits for purchased items, and if it can't be shipped in the next 5 days i would rather go without it.

The bad trader there was myself.

As I recall, after two lost packages, I suggested that having done 20 resin casting runs (each casting run taking about 50 minutes, so almost 17 hours total) in an attempt to provide 10 small tanks (total value, £25 + postage), I refund half the money and we call the trade a bust.

This was rejected so, since I'd lost the tracking details for both packages, I refunded the entire trade. Every single cent was returned.

Onyx then gave me back some of the refund (I don't recall how much) unasked for.

Australia remains the country that loses or delays more of my parcels than any other, at greater cost than any other country.

For example recently I sent 3 parcels to an australian person on the same day for £50 (weirdly £20 cheaper than sending one big parcel). One parcel arrived 3 days later, the other two parcels arrived 8 weeks later, battered with many models broken.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Thanks for adding that extra detail. I had forgotten about the refund business as it was over a year ago (and that I didn't want to see you out of pocket for the work you had done).

PLEASE understand that this was not a dig at the seller but more an example to show that things are not always smooth sailing in the trade forum and a framewrk (or set of rules) would be a GREAT help to the whole community.

I have been a member on a site that resisted allowing sales and trade on their forum as they were aware of the need to regulate such a forum. They have now set up a Buy/Swap/Sell forum but with strict rules that must be adhered to (rules like all for sale posts must have a price which is not to be haggled over, all interested people must post in the thread aswell as contact the seller via PM, etc).
This works perfectly and all involved are happy.

I'm very happy to report that in over 300 other Ebay transactions (and several from fellow TacCommers) from all over the world I have not had any other parcels go astray.

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Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
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Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

wow, that really sucks for both of you

perhaps a set of trade guidelines or a checklist would be beneficial?

for example, not everyone is aware that you can obtain proof of postage (at least in the UK) which is a requirement for ebay issues (if you didn't get proof of postage, you never sent it as far as ebay is concerned....) this is helpful in many ways, and at least helps to assure the buyer of the honesty of the seller

I've got a folder with all my important correspondance in it at home, and ALL my proof of postage reciepts are stored in there, if you're making regular trades via this site or anywhere else, it makes common sense to keep track of all the paperwork, as much to cover your own backside as anything else

packaging is another issue.... the amount of times I've bought something off ebay only for it to arrive in a tattered jiffy envelope, shattered into a hundred billion pieces leads me to think that some people don't consider the fact that bored postal workers like playing football with parcels

If anyone wants to compile a set of guidelines for buying and selling, I think it would only help, without imposing any firm rules and regulations

From my own experiences, this really sounds like the interface between postal services foiled the above trade, I've had packages go missing for 3 months on their way to australia before....

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