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Walkers as Tanks
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=9207		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  dafrca [ Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Walkers as Tanks
One of the main images in a lot of SciFi is the large walking "Tank". Battletech, CAV, Heavy Gear, Epic, and War Machine come to mind in the game world.

So, is there a role for the walker on the battlefield?

Can it be the Tank?

Maybe just a Recon?

Going more with the Heavy Gear sized ones, maybe the upper end Troops (Terminators on Steroids)?

Thoughts, feelings, opinions, disgust. Share...


dafrca
Author:  Markconz [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  Walkers as Tanks
Yes there are definite roles for walkers - why do armies use vulnerable tank tracks at present? Because they need all-terrain capability and tank tracks are the best way to do it so far. Once fluid and speedy bipedal robotics are worked out (not long now) they will be much more efficient. The neurology of bipedal walking is actually very complicated with heaps of feedback loops and the like, but those in the field are getting very close to achieving some remarkable results.
Author:  dafrca [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:39 am ]
Post subject:  Walkers as Tanks
Do you think it will be "Walkers" like Heavy Gear or Robots with much lower profiles?

Is the "Tall Target" issue really and issue?

dafrca
Author:  Markconz [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:52 am ]
Post subject:  Walkers as Tanks
Quote (dafrca @ 17 2005 June,01:39)
Do you think it will be "Walkers" like Heavy Gear or Robots with much lower profiles?

Is the "Tall Target" issue really and issue?

dafrca

I think that a permanently tall profile is a very bad idea on the modern battlefield - though the capacity for it could be useful - much easier to do with legs than tank tracks too. Being able to morph your profile is much for useful than always having the same profile - just as modern soldiers crawl, crouch or stand to make best use of available cover.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:12 am ]
Post subject:  Walkers as Tanks
Light AFVs, used in Traditional role of CAV - screening, pursuit and recon ...
Author:  Markconz [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:20 am ]
Post subject:  Walkers as Tanks
Quote (Legion 4 @ 17 2005 June,05:12)
Light AFVs, used in Traditional role of CAV - screening, pursuit and recon ...

But if economically and technologically it is possible to achieve efficient artificial bipedal locomotion - why not have heavy AFV's as well?
Author:  dafrca [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Walkers as Tanks
Quote (Legion 4 @ 16 2005 June,21:12)
Light AFVs, used in Traditional role of CAV - screening, pursuit and recon ...

Sort of the role Armored Cars sometimes played.

Interesting.

dafrca
Author:  dafrca [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Walkers as Tanks
Quote (Markconz @ 16 2005 June,23:20)
But if economically and technologically it is possible to achieve efficient artificial bipedal locomotion - why not have heavy AFV's as well?

To play devils advocate...

1) Ground Pressure. The same amount of armor on a tank and on a two legged biped. The tank will sink less as it spreads out the weight.

2) Cost. The tank will require less to make it work at the same tech level.

3) Maintenance. The complex system to make the robot work may cause it to be a maintenance issue. Sort of like the Fighter Airplane of today. Useful, but expensive to make and maintain.

Now I am not saying these "have" to be. Just offering some thoughts as to why it might not become the heavy armor.

dafrca
Author:  Markconz [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Walkers as Tanks
Quote (dafrca @ 17 2005 June,07:35)
Quote (Markconz @ 16 2005 June,23:20)
But if economically and technologically it is possible to achieve efficient artificial bipedal locomotion - why not have heavy AFV's as well?

To play devils advocate...

1) Ground Pressure. The same amount of armor on a tank and on a two legged biped. The tank will sink less as it spreads out the weight.

2) Cost. The tank will require less to make it work at the same tech level.

3) Maintenance. The complex system to make the robot work may cause it to be a maintenance issue. Sort of like the Fighter Airplane of today. Useful, but expensive to make and maintain.

Now I am not saying these "have" to be. Just offering some thoughts as to why it might not become the heavy armor.

dafrca

1: We shall make them with huge feet  :p
2: We shall close more orphanages :D
3: Maybe so - though tank tracks are also a huge pain to maintain from what I understand, especially in the desert.
Author:  dafrca [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Walkers as Tanks
Quote (Markconz @ 16 2005 June,23:52)
Quote (dafrca @ 17 2005 June,07:35)
Quote (Markconz @ 16 2005 June,23:20)
But if economically and technologically it is possible to achieve efficient artificial bipedal locomotion - why not have heavy AFV's as well?

To play devils advocate...

1) Ground Pressure. The same amount of armor on a tank and on a two legged biped. The tank will sink less as it spreads out the weight.

1: We shall make them with huge feet ?:p

And on that note I will conceed.  :p

I just know tonight I am going to have nightmares of Reavers with feet ten times larger stomping around my head.

dafrca

(taking his big feet to bed!)  :laugh:
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Walkers as Tanks
1) They will have to be faster and more durable than humans and able to go oto places a human can go. And preferably to a few places a human _can't_ go. Otherwise you'll just send in poor grunts or regular scout vehicles and get the job done with less expensive tools.

2) Building on 1) I think we'll first see some kind of powered armor followed by some kind of support platform for infantry operating in dense terrain.

And one more problem about walkers: recovery. You can tow a tank with a broken track/transmission but you need a separate trailer assembly for a walker with a broken leg. And if it just happens to be in terrain normal vehicles can't go...  :;):
Author:  vanvlak [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Walkers as Tanks
Mojarn, do you realise you've started to describe the Tau? Are they really the most reasonable future army? :D
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Walkers as Tanks
Quote (vanvlak @ 17 2005 June,10:05)
Mojarn, do you realise you've started to describe the Tau? Are they really the most reasonable future army? :D

Space Marines, actually:
Powered armor = powered armor
Support platform = Dreadnought.  :;):
Author:  Markconz [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Walkers as Tanks
Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 17 2005 June,09:18)
1) They will have to be faster and more durable than humans and able to go oto places a human can go. And preferably to a few places a human _can't_ go. Otherwise you'll just send in poor grunts or regular scout vehicles and get the job done with less expensive tools.

2) Building on 1) I think we'll first see some kind of powered armor followed by some kind of support platform for infantry operating in dense terrain.

And one more problem about walkers: recovery. You can tow a tank with a broken track/transmission but you need a separate trailer assembly for a walker with a broken leg. And if it just happens to be in terrain normal vehicles can't go... ?:;):

Regarding the 'less expensive tools' option and we'll just send some 'cheap grunts'.
The political decison to go ahead with the gulf war depended almost entirely on estimated casualty figures - monetary cost was not the issue, human lives and the political cost that would entail was. (According to a recent book I skim-read anyway!). Hence heaps of money is being spent on military AI and tech. Pilotless drones have been used for a while and some primitive combat robots (tracked) have recently been introduced.  I imagine their capabilites will gradually expand.

Going out on a limb, I think remote control walker combat droids will happen before power armour - easier to build them smaller and more agile than power armour (which would be a huge target for any man and his dog with an RPG in its early stages I think). Robots are also utterly expendable in dangerous urban warfare - which is the sort of thing the current tracked robots are for (the army has been requesting them for some time I think).

Actually here is a interesting page I just found - haven't read it, just looked at the pics ;) - check out the 'soldier robot' section with the little spider droid thing.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... nd/fcs.htm
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Walkers as Tanks
Well... the development of walkers as AFVs is really dependent on what government is in vogue at the time.

I too like democracies, but a democracy might not be the best form of government for a combatant.

The former USSR was willing to sacrifice its' troops and I still think that...

A government willing to sacrifice troops can field more poor bloody mudsuckers than robots could be fielded.

Maybe that will change, but I don't see it happening in the next twenty years or so...

I see AT weapons for infantry developing faster than viable walkers...

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
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