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Walkers as Tanks

 Post subject: Walkers as Tanks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:11 pm 
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Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 17 2005 June,01:18)
And one more problem about walkers: recovery. You can tow a tank with a broken track/transmission but you need a separate trailer assembly for a walker with a broken leg. And if it just happens to be in terrain normal vehicles can't go... ?:;):

In one Anime I have, the Walkers are transported in Grav vehicles. They are treated like infantry. Dropped off and picked up by these larger vehicles.

Damaged or not, if a flyer can get there, they can be picked up.

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 Post subject: Walkers as Tanks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:18 pm 
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Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 17 2005 June,03:34)
Quote (vanvlak @ 17 2005 June,10:05)
Mojarn, do you realise you've started to describe the Tau? Are they really the most reasonable future army? :D

Space Marines, actually:
Powered armor = powered armor
Support platform = Dreadnought. ?:;):

I can see that Mojarn, as the need to support the "Walker" infantry then more powerful Walkers show up.

So the question is, at what point does this stop. Do we end up with Walking Buildings like Battletech? Does it stop at some point because of practical reasons?

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 Post subject: Walkers as Tanks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:23 pm 
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Yes, I see walkers, like Sentinels, are similar to armored cars in function/role. And as with all AFVs, there are light, heavy, and MBTs. It's about role/function (& cost). ?The Bradley has both an APC and Cav version, but basically it's the same vehicle. ?The same could be said about my beloved M113 ! :D ? ? ? $$$ is always an overiding concern regardless. ?However, unlike the WWII Japs, Russians, and now the Islamic Fanatics, in the West, WIAs/KIAs/MIAs are the bottom line. We plan on bringing everyone back ... they didn't/don't. ?Armored track vehicles are always a maintenance concern/nightmare. After being a Mech Bn, then Mech Bde Maint. Officer for over 18 months, I knew the deal. ?Deserts are particularly troublesome ... ? ? ?:( ?Wheeled AFVs (Strykers, LAVs, etc.) are cheaper and easier to produce and maintain than tracked but do not have the cross country capabilities of tracked. ?I shudder to think of the maintenance required on walkers, at even an advanced level of technology. Grunts are still the cheapest, most cost effective, and flexible combat arm, however you still need expensive AFVs, FA, Choppers, etc., to limit casualties and get the job done ...




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 Post subject: Walkers as Tanks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:31 pm 
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Quote (dafrca @ 17 2005 June,15:18)
Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 17 2005 June,03:34)
Quote (vanvlak @ 17 2005 June,10:05)
Mojarn, do you realise you've started to describe the Tau? Are they really the most reasonable future army? :D

Space Marines, actually:
Powered armor = powered armor
Support platform = Dreadnought. ?:;):

I can see that Mojarn, as the need to support the "Walker" infantry then more powerful Walkers show up.

So the question is, at what point does this stop. Do we end up with Walking Buildings like Battletech? Does it stop at some point because of practical reasons?

dafrca

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I'm guessing that it would have to stop at some point given the disadvantage of having something so tall it was easy to target. Just look at the development in armor to get as low of a profile as possible. I can definitely see bipedal support platforms (i.e. dreadnoughts) that are bigger than man-sized, but not much bigger.

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 Post subject: Walkers as Tanks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:45 pm 
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Balance is a real issue with anything standing on two legs. Walking is really just controlled falling, and that can be costly with artificial systems without an innate sense of balance. I think that it is unlikely that the larger walkers will ever make the battlefield. Smaller walkers, about 8 feet tall and more likely.

Remote controlled systems are a real way forward, but they will need some kind of on-board system, since the delay time can be critical in a battle situation.

If you really want larger drones, I would guess that hexapod and octopod vehicles are actually more realistic than bipedal ones. Much more stable (and less likely to fall over from the recoil of firing) and able to lose a limb and keep going.

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 Post subject: Walkers as Tanks
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:50 pm 
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This was a piece I wrote up on sci-fi combay in general but it realted here and expresses my views.  

Hello All,

Ironically, I?ve been thinking a lot about sci-fi combat recently and then I saw this post and it really sparked my interest.  To the point I have been thinking about ground combat in an era of space travel.

My next few comments are really my ideas on how a sci-fi game might/should look like.  These are just my opinions and musing but maybe these ideas will strike a cord with the designers of this potential mini line.  

First idea:
In the era of space travel the Navy is king.  The Army/Marine should be a secondary force. As mention in this thread before, many planets would simply submit once space control was lost either because of food and/or trade.  Can you imagine a major city like Seattle being cut off from all major shipments into or out of the city?  Even in WWII the city of Lenningrad was able to hold out because it was never truly isolated from reinforcement and supply, a situation that would be difficult to accomplish with an enemy flotilla in orbit.

Second idea:
I do believe that reliable and accurate orbital support can be done on the sci-fi era game.  So many sci-fi games gloss over orbital support by saying that it is too devastating, thus the attackers wishing to capture the planet ?intact? hold back on the uber weapons.  Or the orbital support is too in accurate.  I say rubbish!  If we can make an ICBM accurate we can sure target military forces from the orbit.  The distance from orbit to ground is probably less than the distance between ships during space combat.  Now the ships may not be able to use their spinal mounts on a military target but maybe there are other classes of ship with more dedicated and smaller weapons for the purpose.  Besides what happens when the enemy doesn?t care about preserving the people, the infrastructure, or even the planet?!

Defender: You can?t bombard us we are a valuable habitable planet with billions of people and an intense industrial base.  So you have no choice but to launch a bloody invasion and fight our ground forces.

Attacker: We have everything we need and beside we can?t breathe your air, bye.

Defender: No wait!...BOOM   :p

Third idea:      
Now many plants will be self sufficient and if the culture is smart they wouldn?t allow their planets to become planet wide mega cities dependent on external supplies.  Now to keep these planets from being bombarded and being forced to submit under threat of seeing all anything important to them simply plinked from orbit they will need to have some kind of defense.  As such planets may/should have planetary defenses.

Now no matter how big a ship is a planet is bigger so it can have some very big guns or missiles pointed up toward the sky.  In fact the power of these weapons would make any starship commander think twice before approaching it.

But for a planet to be protected would require a complete defensive web because if just one part of exposed it would make all the rest vulnerable to attack.  Any planetary defense weapon would only be able to cover so much sky.  The analogy I like to think about is a medieval siege; once the walls where breached it was over.

To break through this defense and to preserve the navy we have to send in the Marines.  This is why we have ground forces.

Forth idea:
 So here we have the marines/army/shock force/etc.  Their job is to crack this defense to that the Navy people can park a ship in orbit and convince the rest of the people to stop fighting.  This is by no means an invasion of conquest where we have to attack every major city.  This is more like a really big raid.  So we have the first type of battle, the battle for the defense installations.

I have tried to play out in my mind how this battle would develop.  The question I have would the attacker have to get close to the facility or simply hit it from a distance.  If we assume the attacker only has to get near enough to deploy ballistic artillery then the battle is real interesting.  The defender cannot sit in bunkers and wait for the attacker.  They have to have a mobile response force capable of meeting the enemy at a distance from the base.  

In that case the battle for the planetary defenses becomes a completely mobile battle with two very maneuverable forces.  I find that scenario very interesting.  

Fifth idea:
The second type of ground battle will be occupation.  Even with massive orbital support there can always be grunt work.  While the enemy won?t be able to mass armored divisions against the occupying forces there can always be battle.  Recent events have shown us that.

Sixth idea:
I believe any interstellar culture will have the ability to leave orbit easily.  It should be as easy as driving a truck from one spot to another today.  Because of that, I believe any interstellar culture would have mastered anti-gravity technology.  

Entering and leaving orbit will be as easy as we see in Star Wars or Star Trek.  The brute force method of rocket motors or even high attitude aircraft with rocket motors won?t work in the long term.  This technology would be as coomon as the Interanl combustion engine is today.

As such I see the sci-fi ground combat vehicle being an anti-gravity vehicle.  The best reference for me is the Renegade legion miniatures. These vehicles may be simply the tank that hovers above the ground or be something really different.  Imagine a cross between an Apache combat helicopter and a M1A1 tank.  Anti-gravity may give you a hybrid armored vehicle that has both the abilities of a helicopter and a tank.  Something similar to the Terminator movies hunter-killer units that we see flying over the legions of terminators.  

As such I don?t think we should see any tracked vehicles in a sci-fi game where space travel is a common occurrence.    

Seventh idea:

Ok mecha is cool.  I love my battletech minis, but with all honesty I think the mostly likely mecha in a universe of space travel is not a huge one.  The anit-grav tank should be king of the battlefield.  Now the idea of  armored infantry or combat walkers is fascinating and I think it has quite a niche in the sci-fi world.  I envision it would be the size of a battletech protomech or Space Marine dreadnought.  In this fast paced combat the combat walkers are the immediate fire support for the infantry.  The mecha would be armed with heavy machine guns, motors, light anti tank weapons, and maybe some not so light anti tank weapons.  It will carry these weapons with decent mobility for a leg unit and the armor to withstand at least machine guns.  The mecha would fulfill the role that our current day heavy platoons or fire support squads do today but in a much more mobile package.  Allowing the base infantry to be more mobile or better armored sense they don?t have to carry a M60, a 60mm mortar, or javelin anti-tank rocket.  Some cultures may have no standard infantry at all and only use combat suits.  I think there some talk about one of the races being that way.

Last idea:
Keep it real.  While it seems to be to be a silly request for a sci-fi game or miniatures I do believe it has some merit. I love when the miniatures and the fluff make sense for their game universe. The introduction text of Dirt Side II is an excellent example.  In that text the author drew some conclusions about the potential future based on current trends and made some assumptions.  Based on those assumptions it made the why behind the rules and the minis more clear.  While I don?t need realistic rules or a detailed explanation of how a fusion engine works I do like it to make a logical sci-fi sense.  Case in point, why to we have gaint combat walkers to carry Storm Troopers into battle when a grav APC will work just as well if not better.  It looked cool I know.

So that?s it for me.  Sorry for taking your time on a long winded post.  But I hope it sparks some ideas when you start designing those miniatures which I know will make us drool and wish for larger bank accounts.  Good luck in your effort.

-Lou


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 Post subject: Walkers as Tanks
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:01 am 
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CC, you make some great points. I believe one of the bad parts of SciFi is that we lump near future with Mega tech future and call them all the same thing.

I agree, if the tech were advanced enough, we would not see the same types of ?roles? we have today. As you said, the MBT and the Attack Copter may become one. Robotic combatants would become more the norm. The ?trooper? of that era may also become something much different.

Bottom line? Nice write up!

dafrca

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 Post subject: Walkers as Tanks
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:19 am 
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mmmm....there was a short story I read a while back...cant remember the title...anyway, it dealt with the near future military with a unit that used a single 8 wheeled command vehicle, similar to the Stryker, and 3 'drone'  vehicles that carried no people but had the same weaponry and capabilities.  The AI on the drones and the command vehicle ran things.  I think that this sort of approach will be the first step, and I don't know if walker tech will ever make it to the battlefield, just because of expense (as has been said above).  Why built a hugely complex walker when a wheeled vehicle would suffice?  

my 2cents,

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 Post subject: Walkers as Tanks
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:21 pm 
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The main reason I can think of to build a walker is that walkers go can go where vehicles can't, like into buildings and up steep flights of stairs.

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 Post subject: Walkers as Tanks
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:31 pm 
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Well for now anyway, walkers are Sci-Fi, AI is still in its infancy, and the wars continue.  Like Hammer's Slammers, GEV/ACVs were the way to go ... We have those with the LCACs to land Amphibious forces, but nothing really as small (!?!) as a 30 ton Cbt Car or 170 ton "Panzer" ... yet ...  I see GEVs, before complex walkers.  But for now, wheels and tracks ...

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 Post subject: Walkers as Tanks
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:13 pm 
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I do expect to see drones playing a greater role in what ever form the military takes in the future. Navy, Air, and Ground all are rushing to develope drones for many roles even now.

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 Post subject: Walkers as Tanks
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:52 am 
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Yes, the AIs are coming ... but like all weapon systems they are only as good as the man behind it ! :D

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 Post subject: Walkers as Tanks
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:58 am 
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Grav tanks are a great way forward, but again the problem of recoil troubles me (the thought of the thing scooting backwards as the shell falls, catoonesque, to the floor is great!).

When laser weaponry actually becomes viable, or solid state stuff is past its sell-by date, then perhaps a few more options are available.

As it is, walkers simply create extra problems which far outweigh the benefits. A walker is just not a very effective way of locomotion - but since nature never invented the wheel, we are stuck with it.

I very much agree that the nature of warfare will be almost unrecognisable in the future. So, planning for it is a bit difficult. Look at the way that cavalry has morphed into air-cav. The role is essentially the same, but the way that it is executed is completed different.

The concept of command stations with drones is probably the most realistic - as long as you can control the drones in an alternative way, as the control van makes a very tempting target. Digital weaponry and warfare is the way that it is currently going, with both the US and UK investing huge sums into the technology. The unseen advances will probably have a greater impact, with a 'war-net', information instantly shared across forces and the actual combatants getting further and further away from each other. Perhaps anything more mobile than a bunker will be worthless, since missiles with a huge range could make a mockery of any mobile force.

The trouble is, walkers are not the only thing that can go up stairs. Yes, there is an inherent flexibility in a walker frame (mainly because we have built the world that way), but tank tracks, and those strange porter trolleys with three wheels in a triangle pattern can do it too.

I think that the AI system will continue to develop, but not without human control somewhere, and not necessarily with titans.

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 Post subject: Walkers as Tanks
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:59 pm 
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I agree with you C/S. In Hammer's universe, his AFVs use Power Guns - equal to hi-tech Plasma weapons and other armies used Lasers, Mass Drivers, etc. ?And still other armies used tracks and wheels.  Technology morphs into the role, or what is required for the mission. ?Cav is a great example ... ?It's all about getting the job done. ?Nucs as effective as they are, have limited use, for obvious reasons ! :o ?AFVs and Air Power revolutionized warfare, but also have their limitations. ?The art and science of warfare is using the (best) available techologies together to suit the mission/role. ? Like the Germans did at the beginning of WWII. ?In Hammers' universe for example, to make massed Armored/Mech formations survivable and not massive targets, ?Anti-FA/Aircraft/Missile tech had to been developed. ?Then these huge 170 ton GEV Panzers could roam in relative safety ... but even then they took limited casualities ... ?We see a similar paradigm when Epic brought in aircraft ... ADA/AAA had to be brought on the board. ?And Sell models of both ! ? :;): Which brings me back to the most important point ... is always all about the $$$ ! :D   Oh yes, they developed limited(?) anti-Nuc tech in Hammer's universe, but still used Nucs and Gas on lower tech forces or if they could get away with it !  }:)




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 Post subject: Walkers as Tanks
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:40 pm 
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 19 2005 June,03:58)
Look at the way that cavalry has morphed into air-cav. The role is essentially the same, but the way that it is executed is completed different.

This is a great example of what I was thinking. It is not that the "Cav" does not have something to do. Just that how it is done and the form it takes changes.

Armies will always need Recon, but will it always be a man? Satellites, Drones (Both Air and Ground), and high quality monitor systems may play the role.

In any case, it makes for some fun stories and minis as we both seek to guess the future and as we ignore the reality and have large walking buildings.  :;):

dafrca

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