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Heavy Gear

 Post subject: Heavy Gear
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:26 pm 
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Hi. I am very much getting into CAV right now (more on that in a seperate thread). Anyway, I have looked at Classic Battletech, which I own and will play occassionally but not a game that I can see myself getting totally into, but the only other game of this type that I can think of is Heavy Gear.

I have heard that this is an interesting game with a lot of potential, but that it is so close ranged that it becomes the same game of 'get behind the enemy and slap him on the back of his head'.

Any comments or experience with this game? Are there any other 'mech' games aside from these three?

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Heavy Gear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:10 am 
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Battletech's an interesting game.  I got into it around the third edition after picking up the 3025 technical readout just because of how great it looked.  The flavour text for the mechs was really fantastic.

The quality of the rules are quite good.  At its heart, the game isn't that complicated, and the core mechanics have been explained through so many editions that there really aren't a lot of questions.  (The GW style is quite a contrast, with lots of rationale mixed in with the rules, and with innumerable per-unit or per-army rules.  I do prefer Epic, but the rules aren't nearly as tight.)

The game feels closer-ranged than it actually is, because the miniatures aren't in scale with the board.  (They're actually about four times the size they should be.)  This is handled somewhat inconsistently in the mechanics, to the effect that a half-ton laser only shoots three times as far as punching distance.

The main, make-it-or-brake-it aspect of the game is damage resolution.  It's something of a demolition derby game, where half the fun is watching the mechs get gradually blasted apart.  Armour gets bashed in, joints seize, weapons are blown off and ammunition explosions can blast whole 'mechs apart.

The weapons are quite distinctive.  Spreads of missiles strike multiple spots, so they're great at causing critical damage once a few holes are poked in the armour.  The heaviest weapon, the Autocannon/20, is large enough to destroy smaller 'mechs outright.

Because of the mechanics, this is always done in some sort of evocative way - autocannon shells ripping through the cockpit, a missile plunging into the hole left by a previous hit.  If you go for this sort of thing, it's a lot of fun.

All of this takes time, however.  Pre-printed 'mech sheets are vital for keeping the game moving quickly (each 'mech has 11 external hit locations), but even so, it's really a skirmish-level game.  A friend and I have recently gotten back into it, and though most of the rules and weapon stats are committed to memory, a six-'mech game can take an evening.

As a result, the 'strategy' of the game isn't all that obvious.  There are the usual sensible things to do - concentrate your fire, don't get flanked, etc.  Nevertheless, it's invariably a bloodbath.  The winning side frequently has to hop away in a single one-legged 'mech.

Now, I'm talking about "old tech" Battletech.  Since that time, numerous new 'mechs have come out, with a peculiarly explicit form of power creep: new mechs are twice as good as the old ones.  The weapons shoot further, do more damage, have to-hit bonuses.  The armour's better, and the heat sinks are twice as good.

I have a certain nostalgia for the old 'mechs; they had their warts and deficiencies, but they have character.  The sheer variety of mechs available now, and in particular the omnimechs (who have hardpoints instead of specific weapons, and can take a different player-customized load-out for every game) reduces this significantly.

I confess that I haven't actually played a medium-sized game with the new mechs.  I was thinking about it a while ago, however, and I'm wondering if the lethality of the game has been upped.  That would improve play, I suspect.

You'd still get the detailed damage effects a lot of the time, but more effective shooting would let you field more 'mechs, since they wouldn't last as long.  Turn 10 of an old tech Battletech game is normally a pretty sorry sight.





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 Post subject: Heavy Gear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:44 am 
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Thanks. Your opinions actually echo those of other people who talk about the subject. The general concesus is that pre-3050 things are great. I always see the game as skirmish level, and detailed. The trouble is that I dont actually like the minis - especially compared to Reaper CAVs. I own Classic Battletech, although I have not played it yet, and I used to have AeroTech.

I think that one of the big problems about BattleTech for me are that the game is already complicated in terms of background. For a newcomer, the sheer variety of rules sets, factions, Mechs and combinations is huge.

Also, there is just something about the game that doesnt appeal to me - I would still play it, but not necessarily invest in it. I am not naturally a huge fan of skirmish level games, and the paperwork involved in BT puts me off a bit.

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 Post subject: Heavy Gear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:14 pm 
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I actually really liked the Hevay Gear background  and thought the rules were OK in my very brief exposure to them, but the cost of the gears was relatively prohibitive in Australia given that I didnt know anybody who played and would have to buy both forces.  I liked the Gear Krieg background even more, but then I guess you wont find that surprising given my penchant for VSF!

I loved classic Battletech and fondly remember soem fight cityfights.  I also agree that ther coming of the Clans etc really killed off the whole game...well for me at least.

So what is it that attracts you to the CAV background? I must admit I dont know anything about it

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 Post subject: Heavy Gear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:05 pm 
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I was wondering the other day the same question - exactly what attracts me to any game? This is especially true for CAV since I have decided to play second edition, before even properly reading the rules (alhtough I do have a good handle on the mechanics due to skimming them, discussion and being familiar with Warlord).

The game just fits what I am looking for. It is ongoing and therefore fairly consistantly supported. The minis are really cool. It actually has a scale (N-Gauge). Combined actions actually seem to work, with infantry and vehicles playing key roles alongside the CAVs. The background is well developed for the factions, and the whole CAV background is nice and geeky - giving weapons stats and category numbers for the things. It also encompasses ECM and chain-lock technology, meaning that the units have jobs on the tabletop beyond just blasting each other.

I have been looking for a game of this type for a while now, which is why I originally got CBT. I also have the Gear Kreig rules somewhere, I had forgotten about them. I remember reading them and not being wildly imporessed, but I cant remember exactly why now!

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 Post subject: Heavy Gear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:59 pm 
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I have to admit I lean towards the Heavy Gear rules set more than Battletech.

The combat rules in HG are much more "realistic" in terms of weapon damage and ranges and in my experience with the 2nd Ed rules set had much less of a tendency than CBT to devolve into a "100 ton fistfight".

With regards to Gear Krieg the local game store I shop at actually has a stupendously large Flames of War contingent and after someone noticed the GK German Zombies pack from DP9 people have started picking up walkers to augument the FoW forces.

Obviously the rules for them are home brewed but as long as it's a friendly game who really cares right?

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 Post subject: Heavy Gear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:01 pm 
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Hi Guys,

My impressions of the three requested games:

Classic Battletech:
- Classic Battletech (CBT) is a "classic" game that made its first debut in the 1980s!
- It greatly favors battlemechs (giant mecha robots) over other types of vehicles. Infantry have little function in the game and because of involved but not overly complicated record sheets, the games keeps to lower tactical level since big battles are greatly slowed down by record-keeping.
- CBT also has a very rich story background that has had over twenty years to develop. CBT is supported by a very large range of gaming supplements ranging from background books, add-on games and even an associated RPG game.
- CBT games usually end up being simply slugging matches with maneauver being worth little and bigger mechs being better.
- CBT was one of the original games that got me involved with 6mm sci-fi and I still like it although it is very dated compared to many other games. CBT has a huge following all over the world and is still very well supported by Iron Winds Miniatures and FanPro. Having said that, I played the death out of Battltech in the 1980s and 1990s and playing CBT again is a very low priority for me. I can plug and chug mathematics all day long with CBT and rarely lose a game or even get much bothered by other players. Battletech lends itself to number counters.

Heavy Gear:
- Heavy Gear (HG) came out in the 1990s in I recall correctly. It was one of DP-9s first games if not the very first.
- HG was in many ways a reaction to Robotech and Battletech in that it used the anime theme and its game mechanics were a response to Battletech's preceived complexity. HG ratcheted down its complexity level well below that of Battletech. Combined arms is much more useful in HG than CBT although the mecha are still well favored. In Epic terms, the game was much more Epic-40k than Spcae Marine 2nd Ed. / Titan Legions. The game mechanics worked, but never became terribly popular.
- HG has been supported by several minis ranges and all have suffered from DP-9s mania fortrying to set trends in miniatures scales by using RR train scales and not miniatures scales. The original minis used HO scaling and mst of the newer models have used the N scale.
- DP-9 still supports HG and the game has evolved since its debut. DP-9 gives out free sample versions of the rules in little phamplettes that inclde eveything you need to sample the game in paper form: a little game board, cut-out mecha, game tables, counters and everything else short of dice.
- I'm not a big fan of the DP-9 game systems. They work, but they've always seemed mechanistic and rote to me in gameplay terms. I knew folks up in Canada and the US East Coast that took a hankering to the game, but overall it never seemed to pick up a big following.

CAV:
- CAV is the newest of the three mecha games to debut and it came out in the 2000s.
- CAV has a number of innovative gaming mechanics including a simple flowing combat system, interesting combat tables and an initiative system that uses playing cards. The game moves quickly and is very good although very simplistic in some ways, which make one game very little different from another according to some players. I experienced this to a ?degree myself. Much like Epic-40k, every unit has a function and combined arms is rewarded in the game even if mecha remain the king of the battlefield.
- CAV is supported by Reaper and uses N scale or 10mm as its miniature size makinjg it compatible with much of the HG line as well as the growing interest in 10mm sci-fi miniatures.
- CAV has a rich and growing background. The mecha in CAV remind me more of VOTOMs than Robotech or other giant robot games. CAV mecha can be very agile although the combat system is deadly and very few mecha can last more than two or three rounds of sustained combat when under pressure (enemy fire). ?
- CAV is good game, but hasn't see as much growth as Reaper would like. It's initial showing was very impressive and then the game petered out. It had a hard time sustaining an audience.
- One of the big Epic fans, Ron Dubray, was very taken in by CAV and does a lot of sculpting for the CAV line.
- In my area the local CAV games demonstrator was Mike Hardy, the maker of the later Cold Navy miniatures line, and he loved the game for the first few years and then he burnt out on it and simply stopped playing. That's what I've seen in my area as well as others, CAV players simple stopped playing. While the game had new mniatures coming out and some new supplementary products, the game failed to capture the attention of its fans.
- I had intentions to become a regular CAV player, but by the time, I painted up a few minis and had played the game enough times to learn it, CAV fell out of favor. I think it's a good system, but I prefer Dirtside II or Epic-Armageddon in terms of more rich gameplay.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: Heavy Gear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:49 pm 
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Thanks guys. This is all very useful (and I am glad that so far nothing has made me regret dropping money into CAV).

Heavy Gear - There has been a certain amount of criticism that DP9 are getting more into the media. I can see this reflected in the web site and news. I cant seem to find basic or quickstart rules for this game, and I have to admit that the minis dont really do much for me. Can anyone give me an idea of the mechanics of it?

Gear Krieg - Like I said, I am sure that I have basic rules for this somewhere. I like the minis, but I remember not being so impressed with the rules. I will have to look them up. Also, this game seems to be more aimed at the roleplay player, with a miniatures game in addition, is this correct?

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 Post subject: Heavy Gear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:06 pm 
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 24 Jan. 2006 (09:49))
Heavy Gear - There has been a certain amount of criticism that DP9 are getting more into the media. I can see this reflected in the web site and news. I cant seem to find basic or quickstart rules for this game, and I have to admit that the minis dont really do much for me. Can anyone give me an idea of the mechanics of it?

Heres the demo game download page CS:

http://www.dp9.com/Funhouse/HG_Demo.htm

And personally I actually rather like the HG miniatures myself. They actually look like plausible unlike the hordes of poorly sculpted excrescence that exists for CBT.

I also have a rather large pile of the older OOP RAFM HO scale gears that I use as "heavy suits" for Dirtside II.

And as far as the media issue goes... really what it boils down to is thats where the real money is. In PC or console games.

it's why Microsoft bought FASA Interactive... strictly for the Battletech line.

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 Post subject: Heavy Gear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:14 pm 
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Hi Iain,

Quote (CyberShadow @ 24 Jan. 2006 (16:49))
Thanks guys. This is all very useful (...and I am glad that so far nothing has made me regret dropping money into CAV).


You're welcome!

CAV isn't a bad game. It's just a game without much of an audience.

I enjoyed playing it, but unfortunately, much like E-A, it is dead in my area.

Quote (CyberShadow @ 24 Jan. 2006 (16:49))
Heavy Gear - There has been a certain amount of criticism that DP9 are getting more into the media. I can see this reflected in the web site and news. I can't seem to find basic or quickstart rules for this game, and I have to admit that the minis don't really do much for me.


DP-9 is a group of geeks that love gaming, but see more money in animation, computer games, movies, TV and the like.

Sure they're more media-oriented than most gaming companies... they know where the money is.

As far as DP-9's mecha styling... they're anime nuts so if you like Japan-imation you're set. Otherwise you might find them lacking.

I like anime and think DP-9s creations are fine, but I tend to prefer grittier looking mecha. Some of the DP-9 mecha look ike Japanese motorcylces to me... very stylish and high-tech, but give me an old beat-up battlewagon like a Harley Davidson or an old Indian anyday over the "mod machine." I do like BMW bikes though although they are hellishly expensive and the maintenance on them can be horrendous compared to other motorcycles.

Quote (CyberShadow @ 24 Jan. 2006 (16:49))
*** Can anyone give me an idea of the mechanics of it? ***


Check out the quickstart rules. They're the best way to get to know the game.

Quote (CyberShadow @ 24 Jan. 2006 (16:49))
Gear Krieg - Like I said, I am sure that I have basic rules for this somewhere. I like the minis, but I remember not being so impressed with the rules. I will have to look them up. Also, this game seems to be more aimed at the roleplay player, with a miniatures game in addition, is this correct?


DP-9 is really into story-writing. All of their games have rich, well-developed stories. This lends them to the RPG genre.

I think that all of the DP-9 backgrounds were first created as stories and then marketed in other ncihes such as miniature games, computer games, RPGs, cartoons, etc. It's just that well-written stories tend to make better RPGs than miniatures games. Order: story then game and fun.

The best miniature games tend to start out as solid game mechanics that are adapted to various story backgrounds. Order: game then stories and fun.

I bought a second-hand bundle of Gearkireg and Luftkrieg books and I love the photos, illustrations and story (the artistry or presentation of the product), but think the games (the meat of the product) are mediocre. I've pretty much had that impression of almost everything DP-9 has turned out. Beautiful packaging, but not a lot of substance under the pretty covers and glossy artwork.

The stories rock, though! :D

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: Heavy Gear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:33 pm 
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I bought and played a bit of Heavy Gear way back when it first came out.  Those rules are very different from CBT.  A '0' (zero) stat is average, +1 is good, and +2 is outstanding.  It's d6, success based, and (IIRC) multiple 'success' rolls add to the # you rolled.  It's very different from anyone else's rules, but plays very quickly.  

Also, the mecha (Gears) are much smaller than CBT 'Mechs, the heaviest Gear standing 5ish meters tall.  I really love the setting, it's just too bad that they changed scales halfway through the production run (from 1/87 to 1/144), although this scale change allows for bigger games with less outlay.  

The problem is lack of support in my area.

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 Post subject: Heavy Gear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:54 pm 
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Quote (Heresiarch @ 24 Jan. 2006 (17:06))
Heres the demo game download page CS:

http://www.dp9.com/Funhouse/HG_Demo.htm

And personally I actually rather like the HG miniatures myself. They actually look like plausible unlike the hordes of poorly sculpted excrescence that exists for CBT.

Thanks. Downloaded, saved, printed and half read. It looks interesting. Go on, tell us what you really think about the CBT minis!  :;):

To be honest, if I was so worried about a lack of a player base in my area, I wouldnt be playing Epic! Anyway, Gaunts Ghost and I have an agreement that we will play any game at all, but the person who likes the game has to provide both forces. This works really well (who can limit themselves to a single army for any game?).

I guess that I cant blame DP9 for chasing the money. I would probably do the same. Anyway, CAV still remains head and shoulders the best for me right now. I will post pics if/when I get a CAV painted up.

Given a choice, I think that Gear Krieg would be more for me out of the two.

Thanks guys.

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 Post subject: Heavy Gear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:55 pm 
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Hi!

I like the basic BT rules. Played them a lot and think they are pretty good. I agree the models arent "great".

I never liked the HG rules much, after playing them a few times. The models are better than the BT ones mostly.

I have yet to try Cav, but I think the models are MUCH better than the other two.

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 Post subject: Heavy Gear
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:26 pm 
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 24 Jan. 2006 (12:54))
Thanks. Downloaded, saved, printed and half read. It looks interesting. Go on, tell us what you really think about the CBT minis!  :;):


:(8:

If I told you what I really thought about them SC you'd probably have to boot me off the boards for language use. :D

Seriously though... compare these guys mechs to the Iron Wind Metal ones:

http://talon-games.com/roguelegion/rlminiatures.html

I'm not really much of a Battletech palyer anymore... although we played a fair bit in the late 1980s and early 1990s... but these are the way IWM should be making mechs look. I've actually been tempted to pick up a lance or two of these just in case I do ever want to play CBT again.

All 3d modeled and rapid-prototyped rather than hand sculpted by a primary school arts and crafts class.

:lol:

Overall though I still like the HG models more... I seem to prefer the "Armoured Trooper Votoms" look more than the Gundam look (for lack of a better decription).





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 Post subject: Heavy Gear
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:02 pm 
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It looks like we have similar opinions on robot design!  :D

You may like the Cav minis.

I am not a fan of the Gundam look either.

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