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Space combatSt

 Post subject: Space combatSt
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:40 pm 
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And don't forget the VSF take on this: Iron Stars.  8v)

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 Post subject: Space combatSt
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:11 pm 
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If you try Full Thrust, I'd recommend playing just the main rules only, although is is simpler, and doesn't accommodate the other species.  The other books add so many updates and optional rules that you have to go to a lot of effort to work out which are the most upto-date and what you and your opponents want to use.  The worst example is the fighter rules with 3 separate and detailed updates which are optional.  To avoid confusion I had to write a summary of all the rules we were using (I mean ALL the rules).  As an additional consequence I don't even want to look at the  :alien:  rules :_(  The updated rules are better (apart from the 6-arcs) and more varied though.

You also need to be very restrained if you custom build ships as some systems are clearly better then others (for instance their is a optimal amount of armour to use- more or less is always a waste).  Also an slightly awkward points adjustment is recommended online as otherwise ships are overpowered the larger they get.

Advantages are
--an elegant and simple system (despite the options)
--small number of ships used (preferable to play with about 6), means you can consider a map campaign with each ship is accounted for rather then just moving point values around.
--good background, with a  human
--3rd edition could be great
--author really considered options and suggestions for campaign play (mentioning ship speed, rules for FTL movement to arrive and leave the battle... etc)
-- ships- lots available, including transports for campaign use, fairly cheap
--planned movement is fun and really makes you think about your movement.  Particularly amusing as you can't premeasure, turning is limited and velocity is maintained from previous turns.  Asteroid collisions are particularly embarrassing.

Other disadvantages
-- 3rd ed might never happen (don't wait for it)
-- GZG ships- I don't like the way you can see the regular shapes used to make them, but some are better then others, and some genuinely nice.  Although cheap they tend to be a bit thin.
-- large ship battles are a headache- trying to remember what damage your opponents ships have taken, looking-up yours, and all those movement notes.
-- planned movement seems like the only real tactics of note.  Maybe that's just me, as I'm put off by the genre with so little scenery to interact with.

I'd advise you look-up Red Chicken Rising.  Don't know if it's a good game (although it looks decent), but the rules and background are fun to read if nothing else.

B5(ACTA)- I don't know it but you can get lots of counters (supposedly for all the ships) to try the game, and probably good to try other rules with.





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 Post subject: Space combatSt
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:11 pm 
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I may have gotten carried-away with my long post there  :sulk:


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 Post subject: Space combatSt
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:26 pm 
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Not at all! Long is good.
I've looked FT over and might be that FT-light is enough?
One thing I thought of was if you have to paper plan? Cant you use counters?
0-6 for acc, P1, S3 etc. Ought to quicken things up a bit, or?

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 Post subject: Space combatSt
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:09 pm 
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I've been considering counters for Port and Starboard 1, 2, 3 for turns, 1-6 and -1 to -6 for acceleration, as well as blanks to disguise your intent.  Seems a bit much.  Will probably go with thick, white, plastic card  squares and a non-permanent marker. (which we currently use for showing speeds anyway).

Also trying a homemade (but not too good yet) speed wheel (like the old epic titan shield wheels in their bases).

FT light should be good for very occasional games but I think you'd get bored. Plenty of things missing- fighters, missiles, mines, points system.  Having said that the essence of the system is there, and given that movement is the main tactical element, there's probably only the missiles missing ( :vo   :smile: ) for tactical purposes.. but then you need anti missile defences as well and you're into the full game..


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 Post subject: Space combatSt
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:48 pm 
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I heard more times before that the CtA system for Babylon 5 is an improvement to BFG, yet, I never read what those changes are. Can someone rescue this biased BFG player?  :))

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 Post subject: Space combatSt
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:58 pm 
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Hi

C/S summaised things pretty well.

Battlefleet Gothic is a fun beer & pretzels game which I enjoy mainly beacuse of the background. Would be cool to link to Epic for a campaign. Earliest fleets (Imperials and Chaos) are most balanced and make up goo match ups. Orks are slightly underpowered and Eladr slightly overpowered. Not played with or against Necrons or Tyranids yet but most people feel they are very overpowered. Some cool Tau models from Forgeworld- look much better than Specialist Games own figures.

Starmada X- have played half a dozen games with Klingon ships vs either Minbari or colonial marines (ships from Aliens), Played well with small numbers of ships. Not sure how well would cope with large fleets but that may be simply because both of us were new to the game. The ship construction rules offered a bit more variety than say Full Thrust. Of Brigade Models official model ranges the only one I really like is the Am-Rep fleet. But can use a wide variety of homebrew ships. I have not yet played the new Armada Admiralty Edition but I have heard good things about it on Starship Combat News.

I have played Full Thrust again some half dozen times. It is slightly less detailed than Starmada X but thus can cope with larger fleet sizes. It also has a ship construction rules albeit with less choice of weapons than Starmada X. The official ships from GZG are gorgues. I have the new style NAC & NSL and have been rempted by ESU. There are also several minor navies with reasonable number of ship designs so there is good variety of fleet styles. I would recomend Full Thrust if you want to field large fleets. I am hoping that Full Thrust 3 will come out soon to tidy up things, but I no longer hold my breath.

B5 ACTA has good points and bad. The good is that it is more detailed version of Battlefleet Gothic, which I like. There is wider variety of special orders. It also allows you to field all iconic designs from the show and several other designs from Agents of Gaming that mainly fit in with the tehem and looks of those seen on screen.

The bad points include those designs originated by Mongoose which are off very poor quality. The criticals rules makes it too easy for larger ships to be taken out by fluky rolls. That means tendancy to swarms of little ships with iconic ships such as the Sharlin, Omeage and Primus rarely seen. Also Mongoose have had a patchy record on releasing good balanced playtested rules & fleet lists and even worse record of supporting games. At least Iron Wind Metals have picked up the wreckage left my Mongoose and so the minatures will shortly be available again.

Never played Battletech space combat but the minatures do not grab me.

Cheers

James

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 Post subject: Space combatSt
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:07 pm 
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Quote: (blackhorizon @ 30 Aug. 2008, 19:48 )

I heard more times before that the CtA system for Babylon 5 is an improvement to BFG, yet, I never read what those changes are. Can someone rescue this biased BFG player?  :))

Overall more detail.

For example BFG has one stat for Hit Points with HP values typically of 6-8 HP for cruisers and 10-12 HP for battleships. By contrast ACTA has both HP and also crew values with much wider spread of values so can have greater variety of designs.

For weapons ACTA did something that would later be followed by Epic Armageddon in having ship & weapon traits. This made it easier to have greater variety by combining different traits. So one ship might have weapons that are precise and double damage, whilst another might have armour piercing.

Plus BFG has just 6 special orders, as per the green special order dice. ACTA has roughly a dozen special orders.

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James

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 Post subject: Space combatSt
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:00 pm 
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Don't forget Starfleet battles/Federation Commander.

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 Post subject: Space combatSt
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:02 pm 
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Can you brief us on it?
That would be very helpful.

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 Post subject: Space combatSt
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:05 pm 
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Sorry, don't know enough about them for a good briefing.  Starflet battles was very popular in its day and I observed large fleets played in the game, more detailed rule system.  Federation Commander from what I understand is more of a lite version, easier amd faster to play.  These are of course set in the Star Trek setting.

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 Post subject: Space combatSt
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:39 pm 
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I have Federation Commander.  It's a streamlined version of SFB.  Instead of multitudinous versions of each class of ship there's just one.  The turn sequences was reorganized to be easier to handle and ship cards simplified.  Biggest change seems to be energy allocation was made much simpler from SFB from what I understand (never played SFB but it seems from online discussion that in SFB you had to pay energy for life support and several other things while in FedCom you just worry about engines, weapons, and things you want to use that turn).

Ship cards are laminated so you can use dry erase markers and in full color.  Miniature ships are pricey but contract cast by Reaper so the quality is good. Or you can use the counters.

The default movement is hex based, but there are rules for going hexless.

This is a licensed for Star Trek but the license is only for the original series timeframe and does not match the "official" Paramount timeline, but is much more coherent than Paramount's.




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 Post subject: Space combatSt
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:09 pm 
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We used to play another Star Trek ship combat game; I believe it was combat portion from the Star Trek RPG (back in the late 80's?).  I cannot be for sure on teh rule set but it was beer and pretzels rules but it made for a fun game.

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 Post subject: Space combatSt
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:57 pm 
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I never played Starfleet Battles so cant comment on that game. I have played Federation Commander a couple of times. I understand that it is supposed to be smlimmed down simplified version of SFB. I quite enkoyed it but would nt want to field anythinbg more than one cruiser sized vessek or mabe couple of destroyer/frigare sized vessels.

Not a game for large fleets but fine for ship duels.

The main negative for me is that it fields only TOS era ships. My ST interest is in the TNG/DS9 era. So not a game I intend to buy. But if you like TOS era then you may well enjoy it.

Cheers

James

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 Post subject: Space combatSt
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:54 am 
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So reading some info BFG is because of its lesser detail in certain aspects more suited for larger engagements then B5 for example?

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