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GW NEARLY DEAD ?

 Post subject: Re: GW NEARLY DEAD ?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:56 pm 
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Ah IP enforcement again. Unfortunately the law requires companies to actively enforce their IP rights. If they don't, then they can be deemed to have voluntarily given them up and would thus be unable to stop said mass reproduction - and perhaps worse, would put at risk their significant licensing revenue. It's the same reason as in the recent Kik/left-pad furore - Kik didn't care there was a piece of code using their trademark, but they had to be seen to defend it.

In fact GW is actually quite unusual in IP terms because it universally allows people to create derivative works without explicit permission. By which I mean conversions (and photos thereof)...

On the other hand, I do think GW could go about it in a different way. They do explain some of it on their website as I recall and they do allow people to operate sites and the like about their products and fluff - all you have to do is read their guidance. So I have little sympathy for people who can't follow those rules and instead lift actual photos and artwork. But they could do more, be a bit more flexible and less combative when people make mistakes. And indeed be much more conversational with their customers in general.

So when it comes to IP, I think it all depends on your perspective.

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 Post subject: Re: GW NEARLY DEAD ?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:06 pm 
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I agree with most of that in theory Kyrt, especially the art work, but even so GW do stupid things. I mean trying to retrospectively get 'space marine' removed in sci fi stuff in no way related to 40k? (and i mean in no way, not 'this is NOT a land raider *wink wink*'') https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/02/t ... ack-online so i don't have much sympathy for GW either

It's like they want people to hate them sometimes

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 Post subject: Re: GW NEARLY DEAD ?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:38 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
Ah IP enforcement again. Unfortunately the law requires companies to actively enforce their IP rights. If they don't, then they can be deemed to have voluntarily given them up and would thus be unable to stop said mass reproduction - and perhaps worse, would put at risk their significant licensing revenue. It's the same reason as in the recent Kik/left-pad furore - Kik didn't care there was a piece of code using their trademark, but they had to be seen to defend it.



In actuality, Trademark is the only law that requires active enforcement.

GW may be better today than ever, but they still have a 20+ year history of going after their fans. Many other companies have made greater strides, many have not. We are not talking mass scale reproductions, those are another topic entirely.

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 Post subject: Re: GW NEARLY DEAD ?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:43 pm 
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partisan_nick wrote:
But right now GW seems to do most things right.

I'm going to say that they're starting to less things wrong (which IS a welcome improvement). I strongly disagree with the assertion that they'll collapse and be bought out by the end of the year (or just collapse). I'll be happy to buy you a beer, Epic, if I'm wrong however. :D

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 Post subject: Re: GW NEARLY DEAD ?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:24 am 
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Well I thought we were talking about trademarks, ie blood bowl fan sites and the like. But yes conflating this with reproductions is not always relevant but remember derivative works of models etc do often use names that are the same or similar. GW cannot have people selling even own-design models as "adeptus astartes" so they must defend that trademark. Though with the chapterhouse verdicts the landscape has changed a little in that respect.

I didn't think we were talking about actual reproductions of models as an example of GWs terrible behaviour, because in that case were not talking about legal technicalities but indisputable infringement. Whether it's done by fans on not, GW absolutely has the right to shut that down. Again, some more nuance could be forthcoming - I for one would like to see license agreements instead of cease and desists for derivative works of models GW don't even produce...

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 Post subject: Re: GW NEARLY DEAD ?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:59 pm 
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Yeah it's the C&D letters to fans making models for things that GW didn't think were worth producing any more that kind of gets to me. I can understand the whole IP argument but in the case of Epic it's been years since they produced anything on that scale.

If GW were to produce reasonably priced 6mm models of their 40k range I for one would look there first for sourcing my models. But with the prices that FW were trying to charge they can run and jump. It's obvious that their ridiculous prices have nothing to do with production costs when you compare them to the various fantastic 3rd party producers going at the moment

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 Post subject: Re: GW NEARLY DEAD ?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:51 pm 
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flyingthruwater wrote:
It's obvious that their ridiculous prices have nothing to do with production costs when you compare them to the various fantastic 3rd party producers going at the moment




But they do. They have a whole studio working towards making new minis, as well as packaging, manufacturing, advertising etc. etc.

Bit different to 'dave' and his mate knocking out some minis in his spare time, garage operations have much much smaller overheads after all.

And whether or not GW decided to stop making epic isn't the point. People making stuff of their IP is still theft of IP in the eyes of the law, and GW have ever right to try to up hold that, especially as they are talking about bringing some of this stuff back at some time (like Blood bowl) You might not like it, as do most people, but it is still the law.

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 Post subject: Re: GW NEARLY DEAD ?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:15 pm 
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Surely economy of scale should kick in at some point when manufacturing is done in house and they shift the amount that they do. I didn't mean just the 6mm producers but companies like Perry miniatures, victrix, even battlefront, that cost sometimes one third the price. GW used to be the be all and end all to me but it gets to the point of not being able to justify the prices at some point. It's a different point for different customers of course I just feel that they've priced a lot of people out of the "GW hobby" and to me that won't help them recover.

Of course they'll give any amount of reasons that they have to charge sometimes £3 per plastic trooper but I stopped being able to believe them quite some time ago (remember when they announced that they were switching to plastic to make the miniatures cheaper at the start of 3rd ed 40k)

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 Post subject: Re: GW NEARLY DEAD ?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:14 pm 
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How many retail stores does Perry miniatures operate?

But TBH costs are only one determinant of price - they only mattger in so much as you obviously cannot charge less than that. The price you charge depends on lots of factors, most notably the price sensitivity of your target market and your competition. Why charge less, when people will pay more. GW have a responsibility to their shareholders to make a profit, and so their pricing strategy is the one that they judge will make them the most money. Could they sell more at a lower price? Probably, but with the margins they operate at (much smaller than you think) even dropping prices by 10% would need them to sell a hell of a lot more just to make the same amount of profit.

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 Post subject: Re: GW NEARLY DEAD ?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:08 pm 
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When we talk about production costs for GW lets not forget they have the stuff made in China, The norm for a lot of companys but the other companys also pass over the savings they make from having the stuff made in China over to the customers by way of offering a cheaper product, that was why China has always been used industry wide in all areas as it provides a massive discount on labour so the end product is dirt cheap. What really bugs me with GW though is when other companys have stuff made in china you work out that at least 15 to 20 percent of your buisness will be lost by means of copying your product by the chinese. This is known as acceptable as boot leg copys will be made and sold, normally by the factorys themselves, but as you pay so little for manufacturing you expect it as your production outlay even including the loss of 15 to 20 percent from bootleg still works out cheaper than you could produce things in the West.

GW IP ... They will never release epic again, Bloodbowl... fantasy football is everywhere and GW s new game if it ever did hit the shelves would fail. This GW ship is sinking and with not enough buckets on board to bail out the water. ::)

Lets face it they made an awesome background story with 40K, yes amazing and a truly brilliant one at that, and we will continue to use it long after they are gone. GW sat on the thrown for too long ignoring fans and ripping them off. If people do not thing that the products are expensive i suggest you go outside into the real world. The only way they can operate now is by downsizing at that is not going to happen, they are bust :)


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 Post subject: Re: GW NEARLY DEAD ?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:20 pm 
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GW plastic production is almost entirely done in house now. Their factory setup is well documented and photos available if one so care to dig out the interviews in the plastics manufacturer trade magazines. In fact their most valuable asset as a company is their factory and high degree of technical proficiency in plastics/SCM infrastructure.

FW may or may not still have some use in china but after the way they got burnt I am unsure if that's the case.

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 Post subject: Re: GW NEARLY DEAD ?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:12 pm 
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What I'm getting at is that there is surely going to be less and less people who will pay what they charge, whether by choice or by simply not being able to afford them, when they jack up the prices sometimes twice a year. I know I was one of said customers about 10 years ago and I haven't bought anything GW except paints since then

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 Post subject: Re: GW NEARLY DEAD ?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:31 pm 
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Don't think they do produce in China... but let's use it anyway if we're talking about price. The reasons producing in China has driven down prices for manufactured goods is because reducing costs gives you a competitive advantage. When you have lower costs than your competitor, you can afford to undercut them (reduce prices).

If you don't have competitors then you reduce costs not so you can reduce prices but so that you make more profit. In that case, the biggest determinant of price (so long as it covers your costs) is simply customers' willingness to pay. Think about popcorn in cinemas. It costs literally a few pence, and sells for like £4. The more you charge the fewer will buy, but every penny you add is pure profit. If you sell some figures for £10 and it costs you £8 to make and distribute them, adding £1 increases your profit per pack by 50%. Even if you sell 25% fewer, you still win. GW are not idiots, if they could make more money by reducing prices, they would. Their upper limits are latyially constrained these days by competition from other manufacturers but it only goes so far since nobody else sells the same product. So mostly it is price sensitivity, which in the case of wargaming (a purely lifestyle product bought by people with relatively high disposable income) people are prepared to pay.

I do live in the real world. the real world where a trip to the cinema for 2 hours enjoyment costs £10, and a trip to the theatre £50. People pay what it's worth to them, even if they don't like the idea of it and complain about it.

I would like to see though, just for interests sake, the data on prices vs background inflation.

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 Post subject: Re: GW NEARLY DEAD ?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:22 pm 
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I happened to go to a toy shop the other day (for a friends newborn) and they had GW stuff in there. Compared to "real" toys GWs prices were actually very competitive - and imagine how many more batmans/darth vaders/barbies are sold every minute!






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 Post subject: Re: GW NEARLY DEAD ?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:45 am 
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Yeah it will be interested to see how the new mass market range will fair stacked up against airfix and the like. Look like simpler slightly cheaper kits.

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