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CHS vs. GW verdict.
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=25355		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  CHS vs. GW verdict.
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/s ... se-Verdict

bigred wrote:
We have a verdict!

Some initial notes:
This is a Jury Verdict, and has not yet become a Final Judgement

Breaking down the counts along the different categories we have:

Copyright Claims
160 claims alleged against CHS
-GW won on 1/3 of the claims, including items such as CHS' Powerfists
-CHS won on 2/3 of the claims, including the use of the underlying shape and size of GW Shoulderpads.

General Trademark Claims
9 claims alleged against CHS
-CHS won all 9 claims, including either no infringement, or fair use of the GW trademarks on CHS' website.

Disputed Trademark Claims
21 disputed trademark claims alleged against CHS
CHS won 11 claims
GW won 10 claims

GW Trademarks ruled "Previously Used in Commerce" Claims
61 claims alleged against CHS
CHS won 35 claims
GW won 27

Notable Trends and Individual Products Under Dispute
CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf

CHS won on some individual products including:
-Jetbike
-Super-heavy walker model
-Lizard Ogre

Damages Awarded:
CHS ordered to pay GW damages of $25,000 USD

Both sides may appeal the ruling.

Thoughts and Implications:
It's looking like however CHS as an entity comes out of this ruling, the implications for the 3rd party industry are profound.

-The ruling of no infringement for the use of the underlying shape and size of GW shoulderpads is now on the legal record.
-Possibly more important is not guilty verdicts on the use of GW trademarks and terms on the CHS website.
-While certain CHS products themselves may disappear from the Earth in the aftermath of this case, it looks like the verdict may have provided a clear blueprint for the 3rd party accessory bits market. One that allows legal use of certain GW trademarks and terms in a way that goes way beyond what Nottingham themselves ever wished to allow.

More details as we get it... Documents will be coming in time.
Author:  Vaaish [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CHS vs. GW verdict.
Interesting, curious to see a list of exactly what was won by who.
Author:  Apocolocyntosis [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CHS vs. GW verdict.
Interesting, thanks for posting, had fallen off my radar :)
Author:  Angel_of_Caliban [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CHS vs. GW verdict.
Vaaish wrote:
Interesting, curious to see a list of exactly what was won by who.
Apocolocyntosis wrote:
Interesting, thanks for posting, had fallen off my radar :)


I agree on both accounts. I'm glad someone finally stood up to the bullying* of GW. Now it seems that GW has lost more ground then they had if they left them alone. Severs them right for losing focus of the gamers and paying more attention to profits.


* Before someone yells at me I understand they need to protect their IP and such but that could have easily worked with CHS and other company's or possible Ventures like E&C. Plus there regard for assuming everything is their IP when we all know where it really came from originally, just because they rip from lots of places at once doesn't make it their IP.
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CHS vs. GW verdict.
The GW Can Do No Wrong crowd are already arriving like flies to cow turd on that thread.
Author:  CyberShadow [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CHS vs. GW verdict.
Wow. I did not expect CHS to come out of that so well, to be honest. I think that it speaks a lot of the aggressive nature of GW claiming on 'generic' designs and terms. This is going to have echoes for a long time in the hobby.....






...(tm) ;)
Author:  madd0ct0r [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CHS vs. GW verdict.
so the doomseer is gone but not the jetbike? hmm.
Author:  Apocolocyntosis [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CHS vs. GW verdict.
jimmyzimms wrote:
The GW Can Do No Wrong crowd are already arriving like flies to cow turd on that thread.

I was a bit surprised as well, always some (fair enough, entitled to their view) but I suppose different forums have different overall feelings on things.
Author:  CyberShadow [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CHS vs. GW verdict.
The thing is, this kind of issue is always going to be there, and is only going to become more significant as the entry price to produce 3P items and parts becomes easier. We are on the doorstep of home use 3D printers, and anyone with £1000 and basic web and design skills will be able to produce parts and add-ons and throw up an online store.

In fact, the wargame industry is actually well behind the curve with this kind of thing, and has been fairly insulated from it.

There is a huge industry of 'unofficial' Transformers products - both add-on and conversion kits, as well as full figures - which has grown hugely in the last 5 years. I own a few myself. There, they cater for the collector, a market that Hasbro largely ignores.

For example, this is NOT an official Hasbro or licensed product;

Image

Games Workshop are going to have to take the same stance that most companies, such as Hasbro, do - They dont like the practice and they dont encourage it, but really there is not much that they can do about it while its a relatively small market sector. The best way to compete against this kind of thing - and something that Hasbro and Takara are starting to be aware to - is to produce these items themselves. In general, people will only go outside of GW if GW dont produce what they want, or charge too much for it. That doesnt make it 'right' or 'fair' or legal, but its the way it is. If both GW and CHS produce equivalent products at the same price, the majority of people would just buy the GW version.
Author:  Nitpick [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CHS vs. GW verdict.
CyberShadow wrote:
The best way to compete against this kind of thing - and something that Hasbro and Takara are starting to be aware to - is to produce these items themselves. In general, people will only go outside of GW if GW dont produce what they want, or charge too much for it. That doesnt make it 'right' or 'fair' or legal, but its the way it is. If both GW and CHS produce equivalent products at the same price, the majority of people would just buy the GW version.


Sums it up nicely. A good day indeed, and I was not surprised. Maybe there is still time to stop your lawyers from hiring more lawyers and focus instead on creative business models, but frankly my dear GW, I really dont give a damn anymore.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CHS vs. GW verdict.
Hmmm ... interesting score ... GW certainly has made some enemies ... as well as some friends/Fanboyz ... Regardless they laugh/cry all the way to the bank ... :whistle
Author:  Dave [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CHS vs. GW verdict.
Having to pay out 25k to GW seems like a hollow victory. Between that and the legal fees I'm left wondering if they'll be around much longer.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CHS vs. GW verdict.
First, it's pro bono representation for CHS. Second, apparently in the testimony CHS claimed to have brought in $400k over the last four years. 25k is large, but not game changing. And there's still appeals to make, remember.
Author:  splash [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CHS vs. GW verdict.
Dave wrote:
Having to pay out 25k to GW seems like a hollow victory. Between that and the legal fees I'm left wondering if they'll be around much longer.


I think they'll be fine. They might have support behind the scenes that can cover this expense for them--I said might I don't really have any insider info on this. But even if they can't handle it and they fold, which naïve and desperate GW fanbois will trumpet as a victory, this ruling isn't just about CHS. It now opens the door for other companies. What may end up being a minor victory for GW if this happens in the short term, will turn out to be a major loss for them in the long run.

And, of course, GW doesn't have the insight to see it that way. It will be business as usual from them.
Author:  Blip [ Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CHS vs. GW verdict.
Difficult to see how this will pan out long term, but one thing for sure, GWs legal team weren't expecting this when they sent that off the shelf cease and desist letter to two guys in their garage! ;-) Will hopefully make them wary about sending more...

And CHS just got an ad campaign they couldn't buy - even with $25k!

and,

If the rumour that tom kirby is looking to sell his controlling stock is also true then his share price just took a big hit... kids will have to wait for those trust funds ! ;-)
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