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'Interesting' comment in WD (UK)

 Post subject: 'Interesting' comment in WD (UK)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:31 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Apr. 02 2007,10:36)
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I concur with Blackhorizon. ?Volunteers need a little more leeway than we would afford GW. ?My understanding is Greg Lane has some personal things going on and they may have cropped up before he could 'pass the torch'. ?

How would any of you feel if Greg posted that his son had died? ?Or he was in an car accident?

You don't know what is going on with him. ?If you are concerned about how fast things are going, stop bitching about it and email him. ?I have NEVER known Greg not to respond to an email I sent him with the subject 'Epic Question please respond'. ?Never.

It could very well be that Greg is in over his head but I recommend we ask him if he needs help. ?In fact, I'll do it for you, folks. ?Satisfied? :angry:

If Greg had posted details of a personal tragedy I would of course feel sorry for Greg, express my heartfealt condolences, and ask if there was anything I could do to help.

-BUT- I seriously doubt that an injury or a tragedy has been the reason why the rules review has been years late.

I concur that volunteers should be given leeway in regards to accomplishing tasks that they are doing for free.  Nobody disputes that.  But being a volunteer does not absolve a person from living up to your obligations in a timely manner.  The time delay that we are looking at blows "leeway" out of the water, far exceeds "letting it slide," goes beyond "looking the other way" and verges on "what is the problem here?!?"

Let's ignore the years aspect of the delay and get to the last couple of months.  A little over a month ago you posted a message that said that Greg was going to get the rules review posted in a couple of weeks.  A couple of weeks has come and gone, twice, and I haven't seen anything happen.  This means:

1) Something horrible has happened to Greg, for which I greatly sorry to hear has happened.
2) Greg has not pursued this as vigorously as he should have.
3) Greg is in over his head and he has not asked for help.
4) Your credibility comes into question.

I'm not trying to be viscious when I write this.  But yes, I am trying to be mean.  I am being mean in the hopes that this stirs the pot enough that some movement happens and resolution can come about.  If somebody has to be a bad guy to get things done, then fine, I'll be that bad guy.  You can join the Finnish Blarg D Impaler Fan Club, say nasty things about me, and get all worked up.

As long as things like the rules review gets done, I won't mind...

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 Post subject: 'Interesting' comment in WD (UK)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:41 pm 
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As I have said before, we use Modified SM1 & SM2 T&OEs with other bits added from E40K, etc.. I really like the IG, SM, Squat, Ork & Chaos TO&Es. :D  And I've added Cats, Vals, and DoK to my IG Rgts, no problem ... :)

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 Post subject: 'Interesting' comment in WD (UK)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:37 pm 
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I've said before, that if the rules review is stalled, the ERC should bring some new members on-board to help jump-start things.

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 Post subject: 'Interesting' comment in WD (UK)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:26 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 02 2007,23:37)
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I've said before, that if the rules review is stalled, the ERC should bring some new members on-board to help jump-start things.

I think, if I recall correctly, that for people to be added to the ERC, they need to be vetted by someone at Specialist Games, the ERC can't do it internally.

As there's not a lot of lights left running at SG, that process just isn't happening.

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 Post subject: 'Interesting' comment in WD (UK)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:32 am 
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Might be time to Epicomm this deader to life again... ?

For some SG forum history on the rules review:

http://www.specialist-games.com/forum/t ... IC_ID=4901

http://www.specialist-games.com/forum....hpage=2

I am comfortable Andy will have the final 2005/2006 Epic Rules Review to post during the first quarter of 2006.


And see comments at the bottom of this post (November 05):
http://www.specialist-games.com/forum/t ... IC_ID=1185

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 Post subject: 'Interesting' comment in WD (UK)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:01 am 
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This is my concern, that without the "official" stamp from GW I don't see how a viable tournament scene can be maintained.

Some people will have the Epicomms version, some the errata SG version and maybe some with just the original hard copy!

Or am I being to pessimistic?


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 Post subject: 'Interesting' comment in WD (UK)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:19 am 
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Since we are being candid...

Why not do the whole thing yourselves?  The information is out there.  You have an ample pool of volunteers who are disgruntled over the process.  There seem to be plenty of people here who are willing to spearhead the project (or are there?).  

One person pick a few more people, make a new ERC.  Use seniority as a method of selecting candidates or run an election over here (using the poll).

Run through all the threads on SG and here, compile the list of everything that needs to be changed, make the editorial changes, adjust the layouts and maintain the artwork (which is okay to do per GW as long as you do not profit from the endeavor), make editorial changes, send it to the forum for inspection, and then put it out.  Correct all the spelling and grammatical errors while you are in there too, please. :;):

This is not meant to be mean, sarcastic, or anything like it.  DO something other than bitch.  If you can't be part of the process (or if the process won't let you be part of it) just do it yourself.

If it is as easy as many of you make it out to be, you'll be done before the ERC gets their act together and the community will have a new pdf.  Cybershadow I am sure would host it with great enthusiasm.  You'll be touted in the halls of Epicdom for ages to come. Despite my earlier comments defending Greg, I would encourage this effort - nothing motivates like competition. LET HIM KNOW YOU ARE DOING IT!

Do'ers and say'ers, that is what the world breaks down into.  I am doing my part to push a new Epic supplement.  Waiting around didn't suit me, so what did I do?  I organized a new one!  We have a volunteer staff, a game plan, an outline, responsibilities, and a deadline (Nov 2007 if anyone is curious).

Now it is POSSIBLE GW might frown on it, or have IP issues, or somebody else (GW or non-GW) might beat us to the punch on some/all of the work.  But oh well.  It is worth the effort.

I'd love to see it happen.  So many have pushed to have a NetEpic Armageddon.  Here is your chance.  Carpe diem.  Reach out to the right people (or any people) and do it.

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 Post subject: 'Interesting' comment in WD (UK)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:22 am 
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(Mephiston @ Apr. 03 2007,06:01)
QUOTE
This is my concern, that without the "official" stamp from GW I don't see how a viable tournament scene can be maintained.

Some people will have the Epicomms version, some the errata SG version and maybe some with just the original hard copy!

Or am I being to pessimistic?

I think that you are being too pessimistic.  There are plenty of tournaments where 'unofficial' lists have made it in.  AMTL, Dark Eldar, various CW lists, Necron, etc.  All those lists are at various stages of 'acceptability' but they have all made it to tournaments.

If you think the problem is SG/GW, don't make a process that relies on it.  Circumvent it (or simply ignore it).  People show up to tournaments to play and advance notice of what rules are being used in the 21st century is easy enough. :)

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 Post subject: 'Interesting' comment in WD (UK)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:26 pm 
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The idea of the rules review is to OFFICIALLY change the rules something only the ERC can do as I very much doubt SG will accept recommendations from anybody else. So if we just do it independently we are just making fan rules.

At the moment I play the 'New' rules every week and the book rules for tournaments. Tournaments in the UK will only accept a review that is OFFICIALLY stamped.

On the subject of people doing something rather than just complaining - I thought everybody had spent 2+ years playtesting/and shaping the rules review.

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 Post subject: 'Interesting' comment in WD (UK)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:47 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Apr. 03 2007,11:19)
QUOTE
Why not do the whole thing yourselves?  The information is out there.  You have an ample pool of volunteers who are disgruntled over the process.  There seem to be plenty of people here who are willing to spearhead the project (or are there?).  

Run through all the threads on SG and here, compile the list of everything that needs to be changed, make the editorial changes, adjust the layouts and maintain the artwork (which is okay to do per GW as long as you do not profit from the endeavor), make editorial changes, send it to the forum for inspection, and then put it out.  Correct all the spelling and grammatical errors while you are in there too, please. :;):

I think that you are being too pessimistic.  There are plenty of tournaments where 'unofficial' lists have made it in.  AMTL, Dark Eldar, various CW lists, Necron, etc.  All those lists are at various stages of 'acceptability' but they have all made it to tournaments.

Re tourneys - well the WPS organises the most in the UK and they are strictly official stuff only.

As for the rest.

1) The book isn't editable. Now I have the software somewhere on a cd/old pc for hacking it and ripping it to pieces to rebuild it, but technically it may be illegal. So anyone wanting to do something with it has to do a lot of work first and buy/pirate ?100's (if not over a 1000) worth of software.

2) No one outside the ERC knows what the changes are. Sure there are discussion threads but what was accepted and what wasn't? Even with an editable main text you don't know what to edit in.

Now even a plain converted-to-pdf-.txt file would do. Anything setting out what changes will occur. Then everyone could be set loose as much as they are able!

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 Post subject: 'Interesting' comment in WD (UK)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:57 pm 
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From what I've read no one outside of Greg knows what the changes are.

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