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Change in Fanatic Forums
Grimshawl
 Post subject: Change in Fanatic Forums
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:16 pm 
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Dont worry I wont strew your words about the internet, I just wanted to know whats up. I hope someone will go to the forums and put up an anouncement like this so everyone can have a better idea what is happening. Almost half the posters on the epic board have put time and effort into the some of the playtest lists, I think they would like to know this. I may be in the minority here but I honestly thought a great amount of work was getting done, after all there are more lists being worked on and brought to completion right now on the epic board then the three that were developed for the core book, or those that went into the swordwind supplement, what with both Chaos lists and the OGBM list and the AMTLs list along with the excellent work on the tau and the work on the necrons, which I am mostly ignorant of and of course the tremendous amount of work going into the Tyranids, thats alot of lists that were all progressing forward, even if there has been some contention amongst us posters.  Add in those who are interested in the rules review and I think a fairly decent amount of progress was being made, and of course GW was the ones setting the pace/schedule, we havent even failed to meet a deadline they've set yet, to my knowledge.
this is of course just the way I see it. Grim

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Change in Fanatic Forums
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:15 pm 
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I think in many cases, progress has ground to a near-halt.

Some of that is due to repetitive arguments.  Some of it is due to valuable and experienced people not wanting to post due to the atmosphere.  Some of it is just due to the number of lists under development outstripping the amount of playtesters willing to provide input.

The CSM and AMTL forums are especially prone to argumentation and non-play-based feedback.  For example, the daemon-summoning fixes (2 options in 2 threads), which I posted after extensive emails with Zac, Audrey, and Jevis, were co-opted into now 5 threads with competing concepts and much of the material is duplicative.  In many cases, the feedback on the original 2 proposals had nothing to do with their merits or flaws and were only concerned with promoting an alternate system.

Consider even the non-confrontational forums like SMs.  How many pages of the same 6-10 rules review recommendations are worth reading?  I can think of at least 9 pages in threads that deal with the full list.  There are also separate threads which talk about the individual items.

As I noted earlier, I agree that for the most part the signal to noise ratio had dropped dramatically.  I'm not sure that the full crank-down is warranted, but I am willing to wait and see because the downside is pretty small, imho.




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dafrca
 Post subject: Change in Fanatic Forums
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:35 pm 
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Quote (Grimshawl @ 27 2005 June,08:48)
Anyway I hate to see the epic forums over there get shot down like this, sure they werent perfect and they were getting somewhat boged down at times with alot of people asking questions or voicing opinions that might not have helped us move forward but it is still a thriving community of people interested in epic, buying into it and hopefully spreading the interest in it around some more,

As I was one of those who spend a lot of energy and time with both the playtest of EpicA and started out being a champion, I must say I think this sound a little naive. I am not trying to be mean, but it was well known that the GW forums were getting out of hand with the flame wars and the level of ?junk? flowing through.

The number of people who tried to argue specific points of view only to reveal that had not played or tried the list were becoming burdensome. As a Champion it was also becoming more and more difficult to keep up with the emails etc. Too many people who had way too much time to bombard the list with their point of view. One person posted more then 50 posts in a six hour time frame one day.

GW chose to ignore it. Thus the environment became difficult to work in. Obvious, it became too much for them as well.

dafrca

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dafrca
 Post subject: Change in Fanatic Forums
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:43 pm 
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Quote (Grimshawl @ 27 2005 June,11:16)
Almost half the posters on the epic board have put time and effort into the some of the playtest lists, I think they would like to know this. I may be in the minority here but I honestly thought a great amount of work was getting done,...

I think a lot of work was being done. I think a lot of time was also being spent rehashing old stuff over and over again. The Pop-Up wars, the LOS arguments, the "Let's go back and dredge up all the Ork, Maine, and or IG things I did not like" arguments were all getting in the way of progress.

I believe that some people did not care if something had been argued out and decided upon. If it was not what they wanted, then they would just keep resurrecting the same old stuff over and over again. In this way, all the new people who had mixed the previous arguments could join in and add to the White Noise.

In some ways, I do not blame them for the desire to flush out the garbage. I just am sorry they feel the need to flush it our way.

dafrca

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Warmaster Nice
 Post subject: Change in Fanatic Forums
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:22 pm 
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Well said Dafrca and Neal. I can't really add much since you pretty much sum up my thoughts and feelings on the subject. I think SG has done what they think (and I tend to agree) is better for the playtesting and progress of army lists. I just hope that we can keep this forum free from the worst flame wars and "white noise" so that this remains a nice relaxed place to be, where people encourage each other's ideas and can give some constructive critisism (And some wild off topic threads as well... We have a tendancy for doing that... :p  )

Cheers! :)

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Change in Fanatic Forums
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:26 pm 
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Quote (dafrca @ 27 2005 June,20:43)
In some ways, I do not blame them for the desire to flush out the garbage. I just am sorry they feel the need to flush it our way.

Well put, dafrca.

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primarch
 Post subject: Change in Fanatic Forums
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:48 pm 
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Quote (dafrca @ 27 2005 June,15:43)
Quote (Grimshawl @ 27 2005 June,11:16)
Almost half the posters on the epic board have put time and effort into the some of the playtest lists, I think they would like to know this. I may be in the minority here but I honestly thought a great amount of work was getting done,...

I think a lot of work was being done. I think a lot of time was also being spent rehashing old stuff over and over again. The Pop-Up wars, the LOS arguments, the "Let's go back and dredge up all the Ork, Maine, and or IG things I did not like" arguments were all getting in the way of progress.

I believe that some people did not care if something had been argued out and decided upon. If it was not what they wanted, then they would just keep resurrecting the same old stuff over and over again. In this way, all the new people who had mixed the previous arguments could join in and add to the White Noise.

In some ways, I do not blame them for the desire to flush out the garbage. I just am sorry they feel the need to flush it our way.

dafrca

Hi!

I feel reasonably informed on the subject of online rules discussions and development to point out that the easiest way to deal with what I call the "endless bitching syndrome" was to do what we do on the netepic list on voted on controversial topics to decide what was to be done.

It doesnt mean it will change the minds of those who are against a certain idea, but it does curtail their moaning since once a vote ratifies something by majority rule anyone still bitching about it just looks petty and foolish and ultimately- ignored.

It was apparent to me early on that the format used would bring problems because their was no real way of dealing with issue with any finality. Any time you deal with large groups of differing opinions you must have some way of deciding what is "final". Of course rules design by "committee" has its drawbacks as well, but not the endless rehashing of "settled" issues.

The issue is who has the last "say". All projects need a leader. Not only for organizational purposes but also for DISCIPLINARY reasons. While it is virtually unheard of on the netepic list to "ban" anyone (although I'm always vigilant to do just that if it were necessary), I think on that particular forum, steps should have been taken to isolate or otherwise ban those who really never contributed anything and just were there to complain.

While the currently projected changes will address many points it also detracts from the "openess" the design process had and may deter some from participating.

Time will tell.

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: Change in Fanatic Forums
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:51 pm 
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Quote (Warmaster Nice @ 27 2005 June,16:22)
Well said Dafrca and Neal. I can't really add much since you pretty much sum up my thoughts and feelings on the subject. I think SG has done what they think (and I tend to agree) is better for the playtesting and progress of army lists. I just hope that we can keep this forum free from the worst flame wars and "white noise" so that this remains a nice relaxed place to be, where people encourage each other's ideas and can give some constructive critisism (And some wild off topic threads as well... We have a tendancy for doing that... :p ?)

Cheers! :)

Hi!

I dont view receiving more people from that forum all that problematic. While we are a easy going bunch, we are also pretty opinionated and not shy.

Anyone coming on these forums with any sort of rudeness or "attitude" would be quickly dealt with on multiple fronts and not last very long.....  :;):

Primarch

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Tas
 Post subject: Change in Fanatic Forums
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:32 pm 
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Well, after reading all that I'm now even more convinced of my decision to stop reading the boards regulalrly some 6 months ago.

Funnily enough I find myself reading P and dafrca's comments and nodding my head throughout

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dafrca
 Post subject: Change in Fanatic Forums
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:03 am 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 27 2005 June,12:15)
I think in many cases, progress has ground to a near-halt.

Some of that is due to repetitive arguments. ?Some of it is due to valuable and experienced people not wanting to post due to the atmosphere. ?Some of it is just due to the number of lists under development outstripping the amount of playtesters willing to provide input.

The CSM and AMTL forums are especially prone to argumentation and non-play-based feedback. ?For example, the daemon-summoning fixes (2 options in 2 threads), which I posted after extensive emails with Zac, Audrey, and Jevis, were co-opted into now 5 threads with competing concepts and much of the material is duplicative. ?In many cases, the feedback on the original 2 proposals had nothing to do with their merits or flaws and were only concerned with promoting an alternate system.

Consider even the non-confrontational forums like SMs. ?How many pages of the same 6-10 rules review recommendations are worth reading? ?I can think of at least 9 pages in threads that deal with the full list. ?There are also separate threads which talk about the individual items.

As I noted earlier, I agree that for the most part the signal to noise ratio had dropped dramatically. ?I'm not sure that the full crank-down is warranted, but I am willing to wait and see because the downside is pretty small, imho.

Wow, I am going to have Neil write my posts for me.  :;):

Thanks for saying in a much better whay what I was feeling inside. As the Champion of the AMTl list, I was sad, discouraged, and overwelmed. That is why I gave up. I was spending too many hours on the list forum when I had work and family who needed me.

dafrca

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dafrca
 Post subject: Change in Fanatic Forums
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:07 am 
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Just to be clear, I am not against more people joining us here. In fact, I can think of nothing better. Just check the attitudes at the door. :laugh:

dafrca

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Change in Fanatic Forums
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:34 am 
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Well, as I said, I only went to the "official" board a few times ... my "grunt" instincts told me this is not where I want to be ... And here is the place !  :;):  "Wherever you go ... that's where you are ..."

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Grimshawl
 Post subject: Change in Fanatic Forums
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:45 pm 
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While I do agree with alot of your statements regarding the SGs epic forum, I have to think that Jervis and the recent lack of actual leadership/ governing of the board had a decent amount to do with it becoming somewhat unrully, people would get to a point where Jervis could have come in with a Management decision on an issue and settled it, as I have seen him do last year before the shake up and that would have been that. Also by asking the Champions of finished lists to open the floor on issues of ballance and then seemingly let the general posters go wherever they wished is I feel what brought alot of those endless posts about, and last not to harp about this but Jervis set up alot of those endless Pop up discussions before even he grew weary of them,
But enough of all that I guess, I just see this latest move a more drastic then it has to be and poorly thought out as a way to achieve reining things in, like using a sledge hammer to fix something when a scalpel would have worked. Grim




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Change in Fanatic Forums
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:46 pm 
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Thanks for the kind words, guys.  Glad you agree with my perception/expression of the issues.

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dysartes
 Post subject: Change in Fanatic Forums
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:21 pm 
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Quote (Grimshawl @ 27 2005 June,16:48)
Hey Maksim if you dont mind will you share more of what your email as an army champion had to say?

Interesting - Army Champions are meant to have had an email regarding this, are we? The last email I had from Jervis was to do with some AMTL questions, and I've only recieved two emails from people off the forum since then - one from pixelgeek and one from Jaldon.

On the other hand, there has been a post in the "Army Chimp Discussion" board, which has made mention of actually turning Army Champions to official "Lead Developers" for their respective army lists.

I wonder if that is CV-able......

Side point - WIP of AMTL v2: Here - Feel free to email any comments to me :)

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