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IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ

 Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:36 pm 
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Understood C/S ... ;D In my old age I'm a bit slow to take to change ... If I was around when fire and the wheel came about, I probably would have voted "NO" !!! ;) ;D :D ::)

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 Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:16 pm 
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^^^ ;D

GlynG wrote:
Could we keep access to past Epicomp galleries in some fashion? They’re nice to look back on for inspirational miniatures.


Many thanks for all of the constructive comments and opinions. It is helping me to define the shape of the evolution of this place. By EpiComp galleries, do you mean these:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/archive ... pic01.html

I would certainly want to keep all of the various competition galleries around, as I agree that they are a fantastic resource and inspiration.

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 Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:26 pm 
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Yes thanks CS, those were what I meant and good that they'll be saved.

I've actually only ever seen the more recent years of the competition - thanks for linking to that page! I hadn't known the older galleries were there *goes away to look at pretty models*


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 Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:36 pm 
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I don't know how everyone else approaches this forum, but whenever I visit I click on the view new posts link and see what topics have been active since the last time I was logged in. Thats where I learn what the newest fan-made models are, and what the latest rule question/debate is, and what the result were from the latest tourney.

If that approach is no longer going to work because the modeling section (and all the fan-made 3D printer art) is in a separate forum from the EA rules development, then I'm against it. Making things harder to browse is a step backward in my opinion. If, however, there is going to be some portal page with all the latests updates shown, then I could probably adapt to that.

Another concern I have for the BFG stuff is that posting non-GW models that are available for sale is against the rules over on the SG site (isn't it?). Any for-profit fan-made stuff will have to be posted over on the new forum, which will just serve to split the community anyway, and it will slow down the creation of cool new ships by the community.

Finally, if you are wanting to become the 'premier' army-scale game forum, then what forums will you be competing with? Yahoo groups? usenet? I think you should go find some of those communities and see 1) how big they are, 2) what games they are discussing, and 3) what the major problems with those boards are so you can offer a better service. Then, even if the users from those groups migrate to here, I suspect they will remain in cliques (at least for a while).

I guess I've always viewed this forum (and the epiccomm forums it started from) as the place for epic fans to go a discuss epic and other stuff. Epic is more than the rules (which can be seen in the number of fan-made rule sets available), its more than the models, and its more than the background material. It's greater than the sum of its parts.

Because of the linked background, the epic site will need some place to post WH:40k news and models. Because of the wide array of proxy manufacturers, the epic site will need an open modeling forum. Because of NetEpic and NetEA, the epic site will need to accomodate both. IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:41 pm 
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It's a shame the EA rule site (epicoms) that's being proposed can't just be an Epic site, with q/a, rules, and models.

Then the other site could be the 'generic' 6-10mm war games site.

The majority of the posting activity on TacCom seems to be Epic. It's all the other 'stuff' that's perhaps too much in one place, especially since it's not being utilized as much.

Or to put it another way, there are plenty of 'generic' sites, but this is pretty much the only Epic site and it would be a shame to divide it and dilute it.


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 Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:29 pm 
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As a newcomer to this site (and epic gaming in its current guise) I have to say that I haven't found any of the forums remotely clique-y at all, everyone is helpful and open and willing to share their knowledge and experience. (having had a reasonable amount of experience of other forums, this one is head, shoulders and waistband above the others in this regard, it is a truly impressive feat!)

For beginners it's helpful to have the development-centric members around as they can advise on the mechanics of the game, how certain list choices interplay with the rules and so on, their work in developing new lists is also very useful and interesting to read.

The 'other' guys are no less helpful, whether it's general advice, inspirational painting/modelling/converting and great ideas for campaigns, themed armies and whatnot.

I agree with Dave that greater separation of parts of the site will certainly reinforce cliques and group mentalities, and I find that quite an offputting thought.

I'm also a little worried for the other 6mm games around and where their presence will lie, it seems that other systems are developed on here, yet the miniatures and games are also discussed, will they move wholesale to the new boards?

I would never have heard of exodus wars and their fantastic products if they weren't quite a big part of this forum, and it's easy to find their fans on this site, rather than trawling over to an unfamiliar forum to get information.

A big forum shakeup and reorganisation would be a very positive step as I have often found navigating around here to be tricky, but surely a dedicated development sub-forum is a perfectly good option?

I apologise if I'm missing the point here.....

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 Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:21 am 
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semajnollissor wrote:
I don't know how everyone else approaches this forum, but whenever I visit I click on the view new posts link and see what topics have been active since the last time I was logged in. Thats where I learn what the newest fan-made models are, and what the latest rule question/debate is, and what the result were from the latest tourney.

If that approach is no longer going to work because the modeling section (and all the fan-made 3D printer art) is in a separate forum from the EA rules development, then I'm against it. Making things harder to browse is a step backward in my opinion. If, however, there is going to be some portal page with all the latests updates shown, then I could probably adapt to that.


Many thanks for your comments. This would be an issue. With the EA Development here, and the modelling and miniatures on the new boards, the search function would not cross over. It is possible that I could integrate these boards into the new site, but I still dont think that the search would cross the borders. This is actually a common issue with CMS.

Quote:
Another concern I have for the BFG stuff is that posting non-GW models that are available for sale is against the rules over on the SG site (isn't it?). Any for-profit fan-made stuff will have to be posted over on the new forum, which will just serve to split the community anyway, and it will slow down the creation of cool new ships by the community.


This is less of an issue. The SG boards are currently run by myself and Lex, and I would need to check with him, but I dont see any major issues with non-GW miniatures being broadcast there. Its one advantage of it not being a GW site.

However, this does address something that cannot be ignored, and that is the excellent new miniatures being produced. On the one hand, many of these are can be close to the line legally, but on the other hand there are several that should be fine. I would like to see a board dedicated to miniature production, out in the open and unrelated to a specific game or board, on the new forums.

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Finally, if you are wanting to become the 'premier' army-scale game forum, then what forums will you be competing with? Yahoo groups? usenet? I think you should go find some of those communities and see 1) how big they are, 2) what games they are discussing, and 3) what the major problems with those boards are so you can offer a better service. Then, even if the users from those groups migrate to here, I suspect they will remain in cliques (at least for a while).

I guess I've always viewed this forum (and the epiccomm forums it started from) as the place for epic fans to go a discuss epic and other stuff. Epic is more than the rules (which can be seen in the number of fan-made rule sets available), its more than the models, and its more than the background material. It's greater than the sum of its parts.

Because of the linked background, the epic site will need some place to post WH:40k news and models. Because of the wide array of proxy manufacturers, the epic site will need an open modeling forum. Because of NetEpic and NetEA, the epic site will need to accomodate both. IMO.


Currently, as far as I am aware, there are no other large sites dedicated to 6mm and army scale games. Our closest compatitors would be places like Warseer, Dakka and so on, but these have a definite GW/PP focus. I guess that Frothers and similar places would be close, but these are aimed at the more mainstream 28mm wargames.

This place HAS always been the place for Epic players to discuss Epic. Thats kind of the issue. With the game in its current state, I simply dont think that it will support this site on its own any more, and that there is much more that can be done. I would like a site that cross-fertilises ideas, miniatures and other concepts from a broad range of games and miniature lines. With geberal Epic discussion moved to the new boards, we would have places to discuss all of the 6mm (and 10mm) lines and games freely, posting pictures from a variety of ranges and manufacturers and including miniatures that wouldnt fit into Epic but would fit - for example - from GZG and drive inspiration that way.

Also, while the focus will be army scale games, I can see an 'other' board for larger miniatures, space ships, and so on. I dont want to ban peoples pretty pictures! ;D

WestSide wrote:
It's a shame the EA rule site (epicoms) that's being proposed can't just be an Epic site, with q/a, rules, and models.

Then the other site could be the 'generic' 6-10mm war games site.

The majority of the posting activity on TacCom seems to be Epic. It's all the other 'stuff' that's perhaps too much in one place, especially since it's not being utilized as much.

Or to put it another way, there are plenty of 'generic' sites, but this is pretty much the only Epic site and it would be a shame to divide it and dilute it.


I do take your point here. However, while possible, this suggestion would mean that the new boards would be to discuss any army scale games.... except Epic. Effectively, pushing it off to a different forum, and kind of defeat the object. Or, it would have another Epic discussion board, and lead to more duplication which is unneccesary. Its a difficult issue. Dont get me wrong, I understand the issues here, and I have thought about this a lot. I have gone round and round with this. The last thing that I want to do is to upset the valuable and fantastic community here, but I cant help in thinking that there needs to be some changes here. I do think that a CMS will be a great addition to the site. I do think that broadening the scope of the place is necessary and valuable.

If we add the CMS here, we have a couple of options:
- drop these boards and move everyone and everything to the new boards
- use these boards and dont use any new ones
- use both sets of boards

If we have a single set of forums, it will need to encompass both the broader scope of army scale games, as well as Epic in its many facets. If we only use these boards, then they wont integrate so well with the rest of the site.

If we have two sets of boards, and this place remains focussed on Epic generally, we duplicate discussion about the game, or exclude it entirely from the new boards.

The best solution that I can see is leave these boards for development, and the new boards for army scale game discussion, including Epic and all miniatures.

kyussinchains wrote:
I agree with Dave that greater separation of parts of the site will certainly reinforce cliques and group mentalities, and I find that quite an offputting thought.

I'm also a little worried for the other 6mm games around and where their presence will lie, it seems that other systems are developed on here, yet the miniatures and games are also discussed, will they move wholesale to the new boards?

I would never have heard of exodus wars and their fantastic products if they weren't quite a big part of this forum, and it's easy to find their fans on this site, rather than trawling over to an unfamiliar forum to get information.

A big forum shakeup and reorganisation would be a very positive step as I have often found navigating around here to be tricky, but surely a dedicated development sub-forum is a perfectly good option?

I apologise if I'm missing the point here.....


Many thanks for your experiences.

Exodus are really the only other 6mm games currently discussed here. I would very much like to continue this, and move their discussion to the new boards, and one result of this would be that any new releases would get highlighted as news and added to the front page to further highlight them. This would be true for lots of new releases, and is one of the main reason that I want to upgrade.

Navigation here is tricky. I can see the new boards split by genre (SciFi, Fantasy, Historical, Napoleonic, etc) with each game/miniature range getting a discussion area. This place should be easier to navigate as a result (only development - main and then force lists) and the new boards should be easier too, as you would have the main genres, then miniatures. One of the issues with navigations is the result of the lack of focus, which is something that I am trying to sort out.

I really do value all of your opinions, guys. Many thanks for contributing. The absolute last thing that I am trying to do is isolate and tick off a part of the community that we have built here. Change is always going to be difficult. However, I just dont think that this site will grow or evolve without this kind of a shake up.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:10 pm 
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I have to say I'm not keen on epic being split accross 2 forums, it just means another forum to read rather than a one stop for all. Also the development, rules and modelling sides are very interlinked so there will be a lot of back and forth between sites. IMO the way to stop cliques is to get finished product released so debates don't drag on for years withnew people feeling dismissed as their point comes up annually and has been previously discussed to death.
I'm very much in favour of cutting away the little used boards here, rehoming some SGs at the SG site and replacing the wiki but I think this board structure could be the basis of the 6-8mm site. Just add forums for other games and better organise the epic ones. I just don't think splitting the community between 2 sites is the best way forward

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 Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:11 pm 
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CyberShadow wrote:
Thanks for your response. As far as I can see it, there are a few issues. Firstly, the structure is only half of the problem here. If that were all, then I would agree with you. However, I really would like to expand the site beyond Epic. If we keep this place and dont create the new boards - even if we integrate it with a CMS - we have two problems. Firstly, that it is still viewed as an 'Epic development' site and secondly that the number of boards and topics covered here becomes very large, and potentially more disorganised than they currently are. The goal is that the new boards will be viewed as a general discussion area for a variety of games, which can grow much larger, without losing the heart of the development going on here.


I guess my objection is more centered around the Epic Modeling and Painting boards will be going away. These and the EA boards that will be staying are mainly what I use TacComms for. Growing the site is obviously a good pursuit, it's just that I'd like to see a board that's for everything epic, and not just the development.

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 Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:16 pm 
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If I understand correctly, CyberShadow wants the site to be generic because an Epic-centric site isn't: a) attracting enough traffic, or b) attracting the 'generic' small scale wargaming traffic they want.

As for issue a) the keywords in the meta tag are simply put, not very search engine effective.
They don't 'search engine' well for an Epic 40k audience. Although lately it's gotten better.
Six months ago I ran into this site totally on accident with a Google Image search!
For keywords you have, 'network, wargames, tactical, 6 mm, 40k, battle report, painted, pictures, etc." as primary keywords.
If you ever, even with your new format, want to really see how many Epic interested you may draw to a forum try, " Epic 40k, Epic 40 000, Epic Armageddon (which you do have, listed as your 13th tag), Adeptus Titanicus, Epic 40k forum, etc."

If issue b) is your main goal, the key words in the meta are still important, you would want to use the actual phrase your searching audience will use when searching not just components of the phrase. Such as " historical wargames", not just "historical", or "Scifi wargames", not just "science fiction".

Altering your keywords, as well as cleaning up the site structure may help you obtain more generic wargamers/unique viewers (if that is your goal)


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 Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:24 pm 
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is there really enough development work currently going on to warrant a board of its own? now most of the races have lists, it's more a case of fine tuning and tweaking rather than building things from the ground up.... I would certainly think that it's not a community which will grow very much, if at all....

again, please excuse my igorance

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 Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:58 pm 
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I'd actually been thinking about making some suggestions about the structure the forums have right now. :) So now you get to read them (you poor people).

Or skip them entirely, I guess. ;)

1) I think development is very well served by having people not just dedicated to development hanging around. Furthermore, I think the board is served by being able to attract people interested in development and those interested in modelling. Having the multiple forums is certainly a draw for me, and seems to be for many other people. I think multiple forums should be avoided wherever possible.

Seriously. Please don't make me go to yet another forum. I'm tired... ;)

2) The Wiki. Personally, I don't use it because the content that is there seems to make no sense and I honestly could barely figure out how most of the structure worked. It also doesn't really have much of a focus - meaning that even motivated individuals won't necessarily add that much information because there's no real vision for what should go there. That, and I found the search function borderline useless. Admittedly, it's been a while since I tried using it. But, honestly, it was one of the least useful wikis I've ever seen.

3) I wouldn't mind focusing on small-scale and space games, personally.

4) If you're set on separation, why not just move Epic development to the Specialist Games forums? Having three forums would seem...excessive. Two is excessive, honestly. :P That, or perhaps move the Specialist Games forums in here somehow. It might not attract many more people, but it'd at least be neater.

5) As-is, the board makes plenty of space for other games. And people don't seem to discuss them. I don't know if that's because there's a perception that these are Epic boards or for some other reason, but if the site already does offer space for such discussion and no one takes advantage of it, that's suggestive.

Now, random ideas!

-One thing you could do - put the NetEA or other game development stuff in one category and all the other stuff in another category. Then ignoring the development stuff when searching would be pretty easy. Having more categories works for some things, but I think if you broke it down into a few categories (like News, Game Discussion, Modelling, and NetEA), you could greatly streamline things around here.

-Another possibility (though I can understand a lack of enthusiasm for it) - eat Port Maw and/or the Specialist Games fora. Have a Specialist Games section, a Space Games section, and a Small Scale section. Makes the place less generic, but also eliminates some competition and broadens the user base. At least in theory.

-Possible Restructuring Options:
*The various News and Updates sections could be combined (at a maximum you could get by with one section for the general board, one for Epic, and one for Gothic)
*40K could go (it's hardly an underserved niche)
*15mm-30mm modelling could be merged into Other Scales (or at least 20mm-30mm could be)
*EA Strategy and Battle Reports could be merged
*Necrons could be merged into Other Forces (since they have a lot fewer lists than others, less potential, and subsist off proxies)
*NetEpic could go or be condensed (they have their own fora now, don't they?)
*the 'other Epic games' could move into the generic wargames section (as could NetEpic)
*Epic Painting and miniatures could be merged/genericized
*the Gothic painting and modelling sections could become generic space modelling sections

-I'd agree with Westside about revising your tags.

-At minimum, merge the various modelling pages. I don't think we need that many.

Anyway. I know you're always working to make the place better. I think you'll succeed. :)

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 Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:33 am 
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Dave wrote:
CyberShadow wrote:
Thanks for your response. As far as I can see it, there are a few issues. Firstly, the structure is only half of the problem here. If that were all, then I would agree with you. However, I really would like to expand the site beyond Epic. If we keep this place and dont create the new boards - even if we integrate it with a CMS - we have two problems. Firstly, that it is still viewed as an 'Epic development' site and secondly that the number of boards and topics covered here becomes very large, and potentially more disorganised than they currently are. The goal is that the new boards will be viewed as a general discussion area for a variety of games, which can grow much larger, without losing the heart of the development going on here.


I guess my objection is more centered around the Epic Modeling and Painting boards will be going away. These and the EA boards that will be staying are mainly what I use TacComms for. Growing the site is obviously a good pursuit, it's just that I'd like to see a board that's for everything epic, and not just the development.


This is my main issue as well. I would prefer having one board for everything related to Epic - rules development, army list development, tactics discussions, modeling and painting, etc, regardless of the edition.

I hope you keep the post count. I'm getting close to 10,000. ;D

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 Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:50 am 
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um, I'm going to echo SK.
I understand you are a very tidy person Cybershadow, and that's a good thing to have in a webmaster but we don't really need all these subforums.
I think we've actually got more subforums then warseer!
Your solution is even further along the compartmentalizing line.

Along with Sk's suggestions for mergers, we could also try the warseer solution -
as an example: the modeling section has TWO links on the main index. one is for generic modeling threads (how do I do this? ect) and the other is for project logs. Click that, and you are given the about 8 different options to cover the different broad categories eg -40k chaos- (all chaos space marines, demons, lost and the damned, dark mechanicus ect)
The modelling is especially important as it's the link between all the different versions of the rules. they all use cool toys.

One of the delights of online discussions is browsing and finding something new and cool. to much compartmentalization kills it. It's the reason I use the 'see all new posts' button. I can skip the compartments completely.
On warseer, due to much heavier traffic I use the 'subscribed threads folder' followed by random browsing. It's an option that isn't available here.

We need more advertising. I found the site through Incoming!'s series of articles on epic back when Raiders was released. Without a steady drip feed of new blood this site will die.

I also just tried googling 'Epic armageddon'

the results:
Wikipedia
GW
GW
BoardGameGeek
Felix's Gaming Pages
Onyx's hobby blog (hi Onyx!)
Review of a beer
review of a beer
Wikiwikiwar (apparently this is the taccoms wiki? I never knew it existed)
The Epicentre - netepic.

googling 6mm modeling or 6mm miniatures pulls up lots of manufacturers and other forums.


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 Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES - PLEASE READ
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:06 am 
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I swear, that beer will be the death of this game. :P

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