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Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
Charax
 Post subject: Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:42 pm 
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*looks around* I see no mention of people wanting it to be like the epic board - I didn't particularly like the epic board layout, but I understand why it was the way it was - just like I don't particularly like the layout of the new SG forum, but I understand why it is that way.

I do, however, expect it to be run with some small measure of consistency, and not like a series of warring nation states, each forum having its own obscure set of rules and being run by a different set of people. At the moment it's being run more like a poorly-conceived GW fan site than a professional forum. Admittedly, after the cooling-off period (Now that they've bothered to tell people about it, rather than leaving it as an unwritten rule) things *might* get better, but by the time that comes around the regular posters will probably have been leached off by other sites. Besides, listening to customers hasn't been GW's strong point, so just *what* suggestions they decide to take on board is pretty much a lucky dip. As PG has said, the forum is designed to allow SG to have access to a free, readily-available playtest group for they rules, it's not a community forum, and it's not for fans of the games, it's for those who want to help SG do their job. Same with the competitions - SG needs articles, so what better way to get them than to give away a load of SG stock in exchange for a ton of entries that you can then use to prolong the shelf-life of their games. Welcome to the battery farm, people, hope you don't mind confined spaces.

How's THAT for venting? and yes, I do have a limitless depth of cynicism to draw from.
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dafrca
 Post subject: Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:51 am 
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Quote (pixelgeek @ 10 2005 July,12:22)
But, and this is an important thing, if you have complaints such as the activity of the Necromunda moderator then email them to Andy or to me so we can act on them. Complaining about the guy here will certainly help you vent but if the guy is out of line or you think he is out of line then complain to the other moderators (via email please) or send Andy Hall an email.

You are 100% correct here Pixelgeek. That is why I did send an email and did point out that the person was not even following published rules.

However, I am not placing a lot of faith in the "system" right now. Where they have made it clear they do not want feedback for 30 days, they have sent a message and I heard it. The message is: ?we know best and you do not?.

If something is done, well then, I will gladly state I was wrong.  :D

In any case, I still wish the best for you and those who are trying to make a difference.

dafrca

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:00 am 
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Quote (dafrca @ 10 2005 July,16:51)
Where they have made it clear they do not want feedback for 30 days, they have sent a message and I heard it. The message is: ?we know best and you do not?.

I think thats a bit cynical. If thats what they thought then why would they have a planned feedback cycle?

What they want to avoid is a flood of posts about the Forum in general (there aren't enough of them to deal with debugging the new system and dealing with user feedback and changes)  but also to get a period where people adjust to the new Forums so that the feedback they get isn't "make it like the old Forum".

You do this in software development as well. You never solict feedback on a version that has substantial changes to it as the comments will almost always be "it isn't what I am used to". So you let people use it and then ask them what they think.




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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:04 am 
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Quote (Charax @ 10 2005 July,13:42)
I do, however, expect it to be run with some small measure of consistency, and not like a series of warring nation states, each forum having its own obscure set of rules and being run by a different set of people.

Resort to hyperbole much?

I can't see how you expect someone to take you seriously when you post something this outrageous. One mod overextends the tagging policy on the Forum and you make it seem like Greek politics in the age of the Athenean city state.

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Jaldon
 Post subject: Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:25 am 
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I was thinking more like a bunch of KGB Commissars in leather later-hose-in saying, in German of course (this is a 'B' movie after all) "You vill tag your post or vee vill ban you to da gulag of da locked post"

I am just kidding PG

Seriously though you can't get anything done in the general forum and it seems most of the stuff is getting done there, while the "real work forums" look uh empty. Dunno it feels like the forum has lost something. And it's not Greek Tragedy

Jaldon

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dafrca
 Post subject: Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:08 am 
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Quote (pixelgeek @ 10 2005 July,17:00)
Quote (dafrca @ 10 2005 July,16:51)
Where they have made it clear they do not want feedback for 30 days, they have sent a message and I heard it. The message is: ?we know best and you do not?.

I think thats a bit cynical. If thats what they thought then why would they have a planned feedback cycle?

What they want to avoid is a flood of posts about the Forum in general (there aren't enough of them to deal with debugging the new system and dealing with user feedback and changes) ?but also to get a period where people adjust to the new Forums so that the feedback they get isn't "make it like the old Forum".

You do this in software development as well. You never solict feedback on a version that has substantial changes to it as the comments will almost always be "it isn't what I am used to". So you let people use it and then ask them what they think.

Fair enough PG. I will back off for a while and see what happens in 20 days or so.  :;):

dafrca

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:13 am 
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Quote (pixelgeek @ 11 2005 July,01:30)
The Forum is going to try and focus on the experimetnal rules and a small number of lists in order to get those done and finished. With Fan areas, project areas (like painting and modelling) and multiple lists there was a lot of activity but not as much focused on critical areas.

Surely having 2 seperate forums - one for painting and modelling and one for fan rules - increases your community spirit and therefore participation with the board, widening your potential pool of testers?

Fairy snuff they are not intended to be 'community' boards anymore but a modicum of generating and encouraging such ideas would help keep people enthused.

As for the 'projects' area I think for articles at least surely it would be encouraged if it produced more?
The advantage of putting projects in there is it splits them off from the forum entirely and it becomes in effect a pool of free game resources promoting and supporting each game.

It could be automated to some extent, say if not updated for 2 months deletes or if published properly deletes.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:31 am 
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Quote (Jaldon @ 10 2005 July,17:25)
Seriously though you can't get anything done in the general forum and it seems most of the stuff is getting done there, while the "real work forums" look uh empty. Dunno it feels like the forum has lost something.

The Rules Question areas should (ideally :-) be rather quiet. If they are busy you have a problem :-)

Not sure what is going to happen with the Experimental Rules sections but I have a feeling that the folks at SG need to evaluate how they are going to be using them.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:35 am 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 10 2005 July,22:13)
Surely having 2 seperate forums - one for painting and modelling and one for fan rules - increases your community spirit and therefore participation with the board, widening your potential pool of testers?

And how effective was the old Forum?

How effective were any of them?

They worked much better, IMO, when they were smaller and more focused.

I remember at the time that there were quite a few people opposed to making the Forum a more "general" space and I think that has turned out to be the case.

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dafrca
 Post subject: Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:40 am 
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Quote (pixelgeek @ 10 2005 July,22:35)
Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 10 2005 July,22:13)
Surely having 2 seperate forums - one for painting and modelling and one for fan rules - increases your community spirit and therefore participation with the board, widening your potential pool of testers?

And how effective was the old Forum?

How effective were any of them?

They worked much better, IMO, when they were smaller and more focused.

I remember at the time that there were quite a few people opposed to making the Forum a more "general" space and I think that has turned out to be the case.

They worked the best when they were restricted and not open to the public, but that does not mean I would want to return to that time.

Just a thought.

dafrca

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:45 am 
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Then do you think SG should be making more effort to wean people off the forum? If they are trying to do so in the current manner it doesn't make 'em look very competent.

I always thought the Experiment rules section (for Epic) was going to function as the area for the core rules changes to be disscussed and for the current focus army lists (great they have moved to this, lots of people kept asking for this sort of thing on the old forum) to be presented tot eh public for feedback and game reports.

Indeed I would wish deep down in my heart battlestats could take game reports (perhaps as word files if not a html form) so they would be archived and sorted and it would take further stress away from the forum.

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Jaldon
 Post subject: Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:56 am 
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I agree, when the forum was much smaller and there was far fewer of us we had much more focus on exactly what we were all trying to accomplish. Heck we got a lot of good work done.

Now I do understand that the turn over is going to take some time in the new forum, it is a given, but they made two big errors before they ever let the genie out of the bottle.

(1) General Discussion: Having just one area for all the game systems was just asking for trouble in navigation, and the present 'search' engine requires you to do a re-search after just viewing one post. Too klunky, and frustrating.

(2) They made it very clear they wanted just feedback in the experimental threads and weren't interested in other peoples ideas. Whether they meant it to sound that harsh or not, that is the way it is percieved, sadly.

However, I can see some good coming out of all of this.

(1) The one size fits all SG forum is not a bad idea as it does allow one to puruse their other favorite SG games with ease. And I do play BFG and Warmaster so I do like that bit.

(2) Cutting down on all the different threads and forcing the posters to focus on the work at hand is a good idea as it (harsh as this sounds) cuts out the 'casual' posters that flooded the previous forum with inane chatter. Something I hope remains true.

(3) It is easier to keep the flamethrowers in check, and to bounce on dullards like me when we get a bit out of line.

While I am going to have fun with the changes, in all seriousness I do await the coming fix, hope it makes life better, will continue to contribute to my favorite, and continue to hope it doesn't go the way of the pet rocks fad. (Do you know that guy even tried selling 'Breeding Sand' *rolls eyes*)

Jaldon:-)

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:13 pm 
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This thread shuffles very close the aggrevating line and then backs off a little. I would like to point out that:

- I am watching this thread closely. Please continue with the discussion, but bear in mind that rudeness to other posters will achieve nothing except a rapid warning.

- The SG boards are the way that they are. I am happy to have people venting here, and discussion how they could/should be made better, but ultimately they are the property of SG, and getting upset about this will not change anything. A certain amount of 'suck it and see' will be useful, if only to stop you being wrong with hindsight.

- Personal assumptions, thrown veiled insults and thinly disguised snide remarks are entirely unhelpful. Please refrain. Write your post, take a deep breath and then read it before you submit it.

If the topic of the previous Epic boards, or the new SG ones, continues to throw heated debate then I will have to limit these topics of discussion, and I really do not want to do that. Bear in mind that this is a 'cold' medium, and that some people may be more easily offended than you are. I ask that everyone generates a little more room to move in this respect and if in doubt, make it clear that you are being friendly and not confrontational.

All that I am asking for is the minimum level of maturity that lets 'grown ups' discuss playing with little toy soldiers. I really hope that this is not too much to ask from anyone here. ?:D

Thanks.

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dafrca
 Post subject: Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:41 pm 
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Sorry Cyber if I am helping with the "Shuffle". I have agreed with Pixelgeek that I need to back off and let the next 20 days go by and see where it goes from there.

Again, sorry if I have made your job harder. :(

dafrca

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Grimshawl
 Post subject: Bureaucracy at it?s finest.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:41 pm 
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I question whether this move to a new style of forum has actually netted GW any improved progress tho, seeing what has been posted on the new forum, and knowing the the playtest lists have scattered somewhat I'm not seeing any excellerated progress that couldnt have been achieved without the drastic steps that they have tacken to get to this point. IF  PG is right that the majority of the negative feedback will be ignored even once they allow discusion of the Forum changes, then I thnk they will only have suceeded in cementing some bad feelings between themselves and some of us their customers. And It isnt like the Specialist Games can afford fewer customers or more bad will really. The net gain just doesnt seem to be worth the net loss. Just my opinion. Grim

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