We have fought SMs & IG as allies all the time, since SM1 in '90. We just follow the rules for fighting with allies and choosing forces. We would never play Tournament Rules either.
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| Specific Marine List vs. IG http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=775 |
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| Author: | Chris [ Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Specific Marine List vs. IG |
Like the quote says, Tournament play says no Allies... However, if you and your brother were having a fun game together, there is nothing stopping him having a combined SM and IG force. But if he would ever want to play in a tournament, he would have to either get some SM tanks or some IG infantry. Hope this is of help! Cheers Chris |
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| Author: | Falesh [ Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Specific Marine List vs. IG |
Thanks for the reply! Out of interest do you know what it was that was being abused that made them take the rule out. Or more specifically what should me and my brother look out for to avoid making a SM/IG combo too powerful? Falesh |
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| Author: | Chris [ Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Specific Marine List vs. IG |
I'm not entirely sure what caused the removal of the rule, but I would guess it would be that taking two balanced army lists, and combining them, meant that people could quite easily take the most powerful parts of both and make a "super-powerful" army list. As for combinations you should look out for, the easist soultion is to just play and fins out for yourself! If say your brother took some SM infantry and a super heavy tank company, and it was too powerful, ban super heavy companies from use and limit them to support formations. Again I hope this helps! Cheers Chris Lastly, just out of curiosity, where on this little planet are you from? |
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| Author: | Legion 4 [ Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Specific Marine List vs. IG |
We have fought SMs & IG as allies all the time, since SM1 in '90. We just follow the rules for fighting with allies and choosing forces. We would never play Tournament Rules either.
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| Author: | iblisdrax [ Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Specific Marine List vs. IG |
The only problem I have with them banning this rule is that in the GW 40k fluff, the Guard and the SM are Supposed to be able to work together. The reason that they banned this combination is that they couldn't or wouldn't take the time to figure out a way to force players to field the combination correctly, ie not simply piecemeal, an artillery unit here, a tank unit there. That combination will result in a very powerfull force, the SM infantry and the IG armor and artillery. To just simply ban the use of them together is quite frankly, annoying. my $.02 iblisdrax |
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| Author: | primarch [ Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Specific Marine List vs. IG |
Hi! Allies in epic has been a long debated question. From a fluff point of view IG and SM are the same armies, forces of the Imperium after all. From a balance point of view I think they should be kept apart because it does lend itself to abuse. Thats what we did in net epic and its worked well. Primarch |
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| Author: | Legion 4 [ Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Specific Marine List vs. IG |
In keeping with the SM1 rules, units are drawn as Companies or Battalions with supporting elements, so units could not be drawn piecemeal. You could have an SM Co. supporting an IG Bn or visa versa. Organizational Templates and Force Levels, plus a good set of rules for TO&Es makes it work without being "beardy" (to use a G/W term). That being said we didn't always choose allies and in many cases, fought a unit with all organic assets. However, SM1 Rules were designed with "allied" forces in mind ... As in the fluff ... 
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| Author: | primarch [ Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Specific Marine List vs. IG |
Hi! SM1 is the only version of epic rules were you could ally IG and SM and it ws still balanced. Alll other versions it just got too cheesy. Then again the amount of units available back then were fewer so allying was a necessity.  Primarch |
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| Author: | Tas [ Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Specific Marine List vs. IG |
I am a big fan of having Allied units and agree- it got banned because a loop-hole free rule couldnt be developed to stop "min-maxers". I would suggest a percentage total allowed for allies (say 30%) and as L4 states, you must take full companies and any support dets must support the formnation they were bought with. IE an IG Support formation cant be attached to a SM Detachment. If you want to restrict them a bit more and represent the (extremely realistic) problems of comms channels etc between two very different forces, do not allow them to dircetly support one another in firefights. This means you have to think carefully about how to employ your allies. |
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| Author: | Falesh [ Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Specific Marine List vs. IG |
Thanks for the help all, it's clarified a number of things. We're going to start with 30%, same dets/companies and see how it goes. If it's too powerful we'll tweak it for the next game. Falesh |
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| Author: | Tas [ Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Specific Marine List vs. IG |
Sounds Good! Please let us know how it goes Cheers Tas |
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| Author: | Legion 4 [ Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Specific Marine List vs. IG |
Yes, that's generally the way to do it. ?And as Tas, said the interoperability of units would be a factor. ?And you may have to think thru how you will use certain units. ?With activation, which is the hallmark of E:A, and a system we have always used, this should not be a problem. |
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| Author: | asaura [ Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Specific Marine List vs. IG |
[quote="Tas,02 2004 Jan.,03:30"][/quote] I would suggest a percentage total allowed for allies (say 30%) and as L4 states, you must take full companies and any support dets must support the formnation they were bought with. ?IE an IG Support formation cant be attached to a SM Detachment. | |
| Author: | primarch [ Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Specific Marine List vs. IG |
Hi! Net epic came up with a similar optional rule limiting allies to a 25% of the armies total. Primarch |
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| Author: | Legion 4 [ Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Specific Marine List vs. IG |
SM1 rules prevents "Cherrypicking", and as I said we started using activation since then. An SM Bn should be able to be fielded along side an IG Rgt. I've played 100s of games using SM1 Allies Rules and activation and know it works. The E:A TO&Es don't work for us and we won't use them. Tournament Rules I can see having no allies - it was even that way in SM1 1
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