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Aircraft Weapons

CAL001

Post subject: Aircraft Weapons

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:04 am

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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:54 am
Posts: 1927
Location: Australia

This is bugging me and stems from the Thunderhawk Transport Post under Adeptus Astartes. We have aircraft all fitted with the same weapon, yet each aircraft has a different stat for the weapons. One closest to my heart are the Marine aircraft, so lets have a look.

Marines

Thunderhawk Gunship

2 x Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
1 x Twin Heavy Bolter 15cm AP4+/AA5+ Right Fire Arc
1 x Twin Heavy Bolter 15cm AP4+/AA5+ Left Fire Arc

Same weapon, different stat based on positioning.

Landing Craft

3 x Twin Heavy Bolters 15cm AP4+
Storm Bolters (15cm) Small Arms

Same weapon, no AA ability, and storm bolters that only count as small arms (watch the Thunderbolt Fighter)

Thunderhawk Transport -Proposed Stats

2 x Twinlinked Heavy Bolter 15cm AP4+/AA5+ Left Arc
2 x Twinlinked Heavy Bolter 15cm AP4+/AA5+ Right Arc

Same weapon, reduced range.

So, the Twinlinked Heavy Bolter common throughout the Marine list is AP4+/AA5+, however has reduced range on some aircraft for no apparent reason. Now onto the Imperial Navy to have a look there.

Imperial Navy

Thunderbolt Fighter

StormBolters 15cm AP4+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
Multilaser 30cm AP5+/AT6+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc

Hang on, it has Storm Bolters with 15cm range and an AA value. No other Storm bolter in the game has a ranged attack or an AA value. Why does this aircraft benefit?

Marauder Bomber

2 x Twin Heavy Bolters 15cm AA5+ ??
Twin Lascannon 45cm AT4+/AA4+ Fixed Forward Arc

Heavy Bolters again, reduced value. Wow, a 45cm AA attack, very rare for an aircraft.

Orks

Fighta Bomber

Heavy Shootas 15cm AP5+/AA5+

Nothing in the Ork list to compare to. It is the only Heavy Shoota, all other Shootas revered to as 'Big'.

Ork Landa

Gun Turrets 15cm D6+3 x AP5+/AA6+

Number of attacks could be of great advantage?

Eldar

Nightwing Interceptor
Twin Shuriken Cannons 30cm AP4+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
Bright Lances 30cm AT4+/AA5+ Lance, Fixed Forward Arc

Both weapons are 30cm, so why is this? It is a comon theme for Eldar, that all their AA on aircraft, surprisingly has the same range.

Pheonix Bomber

Twin Shuriken Cannons 30cm AP4+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc

Same weapon as above, same stats.

Vampire Raider

Scatter Laser 30cm AP5+/AT5+/AA5+, Fixed Forward Arc

To summerize attacks by army.

Marine Navy

2 x 15cm AA5+ 2 x 15cm AA5+
1 x 30cm AA5+ 1 x 30cm AA5+
1 x 45cm AA4+

Ork Eldar

1 x 15cm AA5+ 4 x 30cm AA5+

Is it about balance? I would have thought to balance a weapon, it would have to have the same stat regardless of the platform it is attached to. This is not to say that I think a HB mounted on a Land Raider should have an AA attack, it shouldn't. What I am saying is that a HB mounted on any aircraft should be 30cm AA5+, the restrictions on ist use then come about through its mounting, left fire arc, right or 360. This then makes it more about the tactics used than the weapon itself.

If it is aboout balance between armies I dont see that it is .

The Ork technologically behind the other races has pooor air cover and AA ability. This I can live with, its an Ork, the game was desined to give them poor air.

The Eldar seem to have achieved a balance accross all of their aircraft at 30cm. They also have a larger number of AA capable ground units, with three units capable of engaguing aircraft. Most other armies have one.

Navy

Have the greatest range on an aircraft at 45cm, and have covered the three bands with attacks. They have weapons that have stats with attacks, that elsewhere in the army list they would not. ie Storm Bolters and Lasers. However they can be added to all Imperial forces.

Marines

Have three aircraft all with the same weapon, but cant aggree on what value it should have. The Landing Craft, by far the slowest and most vulnerable aircraft can't even shoot back. It shares Storm Bolters with the Thunderbolt, but has no value for them. It has twinlinkded Lascannons that cannot shoot at aircraft, yet Navy have twin lascannons that fire the furtherest and have the best AA valuse in the game. ?

I think you have a pretty good idea of what I am about on this one, change the stats of weapons where they differ based on mounting. Remove the Storm bolter and on the THB and give it a new name. Give the LC some AA so it can protect itself.

My buck fifties worth
CAL

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Legion 4

Post subject: Aircraft Weapons

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:21 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA

Good research, CAL ... I'm for what works ... without being too simple.

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dptdexys

Post subject: Aircraft Weapons

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:46 pm

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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 1974
Location: South Yorkshire

The Landing Craft does have AA on its 3 Twin Heavy Bolters.

It is in the errata and FAQs section on the Specialist Games site.

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Lord Inquisitor

Post subject: Aircraft Weapons

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:46 pm

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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA

Several points in no particular order...

1) Aircraft weapons generally have a shorter range. This is probably a) for realism, to take into account the added distance from altitude and b) for balance, to prevent aircraft from being able to hang around outside flack distance and shoot!

2) Aircraft without transport capacity don't have the ability to land (and why would they want to?), and cannot participate in assaults. Hence any weapons such as Stormbolters that are Small Arms would need to have AP/AT/AA values. Also small arms are much more useful in dogfights than firing from the ground up!

3) Aircraft weapons are generally usable to shoot at aircraft. Hence if nothing else is changed, an AA value is required.

4) There's obviously a conceptual difference between "defensive" aircraft weapons and "offensive" ones. In game balance terms (most importantly?) the tighter the weapon's fire arc the easier it is to avoid the flack, and conversely longer ranged but all round AA is much more useful and is given shorter ranges. In fluff terms the primary weapons on a Thunderhawk are the dorsal battlecannon and the nose heavy bolters, controlled by the crew with a limited fire arc, while the defensive wind bolters are likely servitor-controlled and automated with a shorter effective range.

5) Actual weapon loadout is somewhat constrained by models and precident.

Personally I think the stats are reasonably okay, and are largely like they are for balance reasons. I think there is a justified point to keeping nomenclature consistent. I think (for example) changing the name of the defensive heavy bolters on the Thunderhawks and LC to "Defensive Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters" or "Twin Heavy Bolter Turret" or something like that to differentiate from the primary weapon systems wouldn't be a bad idea. Likewise with the Storm bolters - "wing-mounted storm bolters" or "Thunderbolt storm bolters" is enough to give you the idea that it isn't exactly the same as the normal weapon.

Lord =I=

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CAL001

Post subject: Aircraft Weapons

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:24 pm

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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:54 am
Posts: 1927
Location: Australia

Lord I

Mate,
1 . Altitude does nothing, if anything it increases range. An aircraft taking a gun run at a target will engage from above 1000 feet. Firing from aircraft to aircraft at over 500m. Most flak ranges from ground unts is 45cm +.

2. I am not interested in the fact that non transports cannt participate. You have a storm bolter with a value. If you are going to confer it a value then it goes to all the vehicles/aircraft fitted with it. Or remove it from the single unit that has it and replace it with a new weapon (autocannon, heavy stubber).

3. Dont know where you are going with this. I am not looking to remove AA valuse, just even them out based on the weapon they are.

4. All weapons on a thunderhawk are controlled by the gunner with the assistance of the machine spirit, so say IA2. It also states that the weapons are for sweeping landing zones as well as engegeing enemy aircraft and places no difference between to two weapon mounts.

5. Once again mate I am not sure where this comment is going. I have no problem with what the models have, my problem is with the stats.

You say the stats are reasonably OK, so what is it that isn't right in your opinion. And a weapon cannot be balanced if it has varied stats. A weapon with one value is balanced, it then comes down to its use. This is a tactical game, it should be more about the tactics than the weapons to win. Evening out a weapons stats makes it about the tactics. And if you look at balance, how is it that only the Eldar manage to get all their aircraft attacks the same range 30cm. Allowing them to stay outside targeted aircraft AA cover. Thats not balanced, a distinct advantage has been given to that race, they have the best air to air AA and the most ground based flak at three units, all other armies have one. Then they have the most aircraft of any race as well.

Cheers
CAL

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Aircraft Weapons

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:45 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

5) Actual weapon loadout is somewhat constrained by models and precident.

ForgeWorld.

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CAL001

Post subject: Aircraft Weapons

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:53 pm

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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:54 am
Posts: 1927
Location: Australia

I'll add one other not concerning the primary offending weapon, the Twinlinked Heavy Bolter. All other twinlinked heavy bolters have the same value. All standard heavy bolters reguardless of army list have the same value. There is a precident for you on the standardisation of weapon values.

And if you say it has a different value because it is on the wing mount, then the wing mount is less effective, of inferior construction. Then would you say that Guard equipment is inferior to Marine, as fluff has always told us it is. So by that we should reduce all of the Guard values where they use Marine based weapons.

Food for thought
CAL

Nice plug E&C

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Lord Inquisitor

Post subject: Aircraft Weapons

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:56 pm

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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA

(CAL001 @ Oct. 01 2006,18:24)

QUOTE

1 . Altitude does nothing, if anything it increases range. An aircraft taking a gun run at a target will engage from above 1000 feet. Firing from aircraft to aircraft at over 500m. Most flak ranges from ground unts is 45cm +.

Altitude distance doesn't necessarily make a difference to how far a projectile weapon can fire in terms of gravitational effects, but vertical distance still affect accuracy. Even with a laser weapon (no gravitational effects at all) an aircraft only 15cm above the board would add to the range quite considerably. ?And altitude will have a major effect when shooting UP (with projectiles), which is likely to be the case of a bomber like a Thunderhawk or Marauder firing flack at interceptors (which would attempt to attack from higher altitude), which is the primary purpose of these weapons.

2. I am not interested in the fact that non transports cannt participate. You have a storm bolter with a value. If you are going to confer it a value then it goes to all the vehicles/aircraft fitted with it. Or remove it from the single unit that has it and replace it with a new weapon (autocannon, heavy stubber).

This is what point 5 was getting at. The weapons that any given vehicle may well be set by precident from previous rules or models or 40K rules. I assume Thunderbolts have storm bolters! (although, now I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure if the Forgeworld one doesn't have some kind of autocannon: anyone got IA1?)

3. Dont know where you are going with this. I am not looking to remove AA valuse, just even them out based o the weapon they are.
The point is that a heavy bolter on an aircraft is going to have a different statline than a troop-carried one, simply by virtue of being on an aircraft...

4. All weapons on a thunderhawk are controlled by the gunner with the assistance of the machine spirit, so say IA2. It also states that the weapons are for sweeping landing zones as well as engegeing enemy aircraft and places no difference between to two weapon mounts.
I'm not all that sure, but I don't think the IA rules have rules for aircraft vs aircraft? And besides, the Machine Spirit is typically poorer at targetting than Space Marines (BS2 in 40K). It would make perfect sense that the Machine Spirit would handle flack attacks with a lower efficiency.

5. Once again mate I am not sure where this comment is going. I have no problem with what the models have, my problem is with the stats.
You just said you want to change the weapon loadout on the Thunderbolt.

You say the stats are reasonably OK, so what is it that isn't right in your opinion. And a weapon cannot be balanced if it has varied stats. A weapon with one value is balanced, it then comes down to its use. This is a tactical game, it should be more about the tactics than the weapons to win. Evening out a weapons stats makes it about the tactics.
No, I don't agree here. We play with units, not weapons, and units have points values and fit within the list. Look at my GK list - there are (quite deliberately) three different values for "Nemesis Force Weapons". However, since they are part of the unit and the unit is what is playtested, the weapon is balanced as long as the unit is balanced. EDIT: so you could call the Heavy Bolters "marshmellow guns" and it woudn't make one difference to the balance of the unit, which is what counts. Now, whether the unit is balanced against other units - such as Eldar interceptors - is a totally different matter.

As for evening out the weapons - the game isn't meant to be "even"! Some units are better than others. The troops of some armies are better than others!

The Thunderbolt has been playtested. It should be correct in points value, and I think it is. Now are you saying Thunderbolts are unbalanced? I don't think you are.

So the problem is purely one of nomenclature, right?

Lord =I=

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Lord Inquisitor

Post subject: Aircraft Weapons

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:03 am

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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA

(CAL001 @ Oct. 01 2006,18:53)

QUOTE

I'll add one other not concerning the primary offending weapon, the Twinlinked Heavy Bolter.

Oh, I understand. I think it is sensible to have one profile for one given weapon name. Which is why I'm saying that you can have differing weapon names for the differing profiles that are there for mechanistic or balance reasons.

This is much easier than trying to redo every aircraft in the book, which would require reworking and repointing all of the published lists. As an example, a Defiler Heavy Flamer is different in stats from the Heavy Flamer carried by the siegemasters, despite them being the same in 40K.

So yes, a guard heavy weapon could potentially be worse than a SM one - and would require a different name as a consequence. But these differences are relatively minor in Epic terms. Normally such differences are found in CC and FF values - since a given small arms or assault weapons profile need not reflect the appropriate CC or FF value.

Lord =I=

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nealhunt

Post subject: Aircraft Weapons

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:44 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

The simple answer is that during development the aircraft simply weren't given the repeated poring over that the ground units were. For a long time during playtesting there were multiple stat lines for several weapon systems and it wasn't until "clean up" near the end of the process that anyone bothered to start messing with nomenclature to standardize the stat lines. It just didn't happen for air units.

As LordI pointed out, for balance reasons it is not possible to have air units have the same weapon stat lines as groud units even when the background material says they are the same.

No, I don't agree here. We play with units, not weapons, and units have points values and fit within the list.

I agree entirely with LordI here. The units were designed and balanced as units in the greater context of the army as a whole. It's not like a fully modular system like Dirtside or Car Wars where there is a master formula to determine overall point value.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Aircraft Weapons

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:50 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

(CAL001 @ Oct. 01 2006,23:53)

QUOTE

Nice plug E&C

Well why not? They produce a great variety of Aircraft that don't currently have rules/points...

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