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Renegade Legion /Centurion minis

 Post subject: Renegade Legion /Centurion minis
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:00 pm 
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Can anyone tell me who was planning the RT Tournament next spring in the DC/Baltimore area?  If so, do you also know how it's proceeding.

It turns out my sister and brother-in-law got their orders and will definitely be stationed in DC, so I am quite interested in planning a visit to coincide with the tourney.

My apologies if this was posted on a different board.  I get them mixed up. :oo

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 Post subject: Renegade Legion /Centurion minis
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:00 am 
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Hya all!!

Well, I have been following asome stuff on epic lately, and even if I don't know the rules of the game (at least yet) in fact it is appealing to me more than regular 40k lately. Well, in any case I wanted to make a comment/question on the issue of tanks.

In most reports and army lists I have seen around I have noticed that in a lot of armies there is quite a large number of "big tanks (baneblade, land raider, gargants-even if I think this would be titan in category-, and the like) while regular line tanks are ...scarce. I see less Leman Russes and predators than I think would be fluffy. In fact I failed to see a single predator so far and rhinos being more than scarce (whirlwinds and speeders are there, though).

Do those other tanks and transports suck big time? and if so, why? IMO they should be exactly that: transports and line tanks, not rare sightings over land raiders (that most of the time are only 20 or less strong units per chapter, mind you). The same goes for leman russes, even if I have seen way more russes when compared to superheavy tanks than when predators are compared to raiders. It seems weird for me to see that many land raiders and terminators around, dunno. Anyone playing with a company's army?  17-20 marine stands + command stand (21 total) + support stuff (predators, whirlwinds, speeders, bikes).

Dunno, I suppose it simply shocked me to notice that :)

Cheers,

Xavi

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 Post subject: Renegade Legion /Centurion minis
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 11:06 am 
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I agree. I much prefer tank charges with loads of transports and support tanks. I think that it is simply the minis, people like the super-heavies. I would rather get a handful of or Predators or other support tanks than a larger one.

However, I would classify the Land Raider as a 'tank of the line' rather than a 'large tank'. It is bigger than most, but it is still only a transport for two stands.

That is one reason why I put together my Stealer Epic force, loads of Chimera transports and support tanks and nothing larger. Same for the Chaos Crucible of Chaos rules... notice a pattern?  ???

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 Post subject: Renegade Legion /Centurion minis
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:03 pm 
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I don't think Epic tanks are dissapearing. I have seen some Epic:A battles with 8 preadators each side. And with the Leman Russ company being 10 tanks, I don't see them dissapearing either.

Granted they _should_ be more common than bigger tanks, but the new lists allow people to tailor their force to the battle needed, ie if they are up against a few titans, a detachment of shadowswords would be better than some leman russes.

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 Post subject: Renegade Legion /Centurion minis
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:08 pm 
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I think it depends upon how cheaply the models can be got hold of too.

Space Marines, for instance, had aplastic tank sprue on which were rhinos, whirlwinds and land raiders.  It was a lot cheaper to buy this (and you got it in the boxed game) than blisters of metal preds.  So many people had more of hese in relation to the others.  At least, by me anyway.


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 Post subject: Renegade Legion /Centurion minis
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:12 pm 
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I'm not sure what you mean ? ?All versions of AFVs vary a bit by the rules you use, but generally they are consistent, IMO. ?Players failing to use combined arms, do it at their own peril. The IG are the most forgiving of all the Epic armies, with a lot of Infantry, Heavy tanks, and Artillery, making them more redundant. ?And are a good army for the "Tactically Impaired". ? ?And unfortunately many of the Epic gamers, I've played suffer from this malady. ? Don't take offense Xavi, but if I recall you said you had limited experience with Epic, so your observations, may have been be taken out of context. ?However, an all/mostly tank force is the easiest to use, based on all the Epic games I've played in over 10 years.  And Mech Infantry harder to use for some Epic gamers. ?It is also possible that in the new E-A rules, Jervis changed the paradigm, and "tanks of the line" or Main Battle Tanks (MBTs), as they are known in military jargon, may have lost their "punch", in this latest iteration of the Epic saga. ?I have not seen this in my study of the rules and games. ?I would have a tendancy to believe that the ineptness of the players is the cause for the lack of MBTs and APCs ... but I could be wrong ? ? ? ? ? ???

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 Post subject: Renegade Legion /Centurion minis
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:45 pm 
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Good points so far :) Thx.

Only one observation to Legion 4:

Nope, I don't take offense about your coments at all. As I said I have not eve READ the rules of the game, let alone PLAY it. LOL

In fact I think you didn't notice that the reason of my post was more a fluff reason, though. I haven't seen a lot of what you call MBT in most armies. To me it looks they go for infantry and pass over that stage to jump to heavy tanks in a lot of cases. This was the reason I was looking at this with suspicion. I see predators as a fairly common feature in marine armies, while Land Raiders are quite rare (or should be). A chapter can eaily have say 50-60 predators while they have 20 Land raiders at most in a lot of cases, usually less.

I posted that because I don't feel...right seeing this and wanted to know the reasons of why this is a common feature in a lot of army configurations I have said. It is about organization of the army list from a background point  of view, nothing to do with rules :) This coming to my reasoning, but obviously the rules *do* affect why people take a certain tank or not :) Some reasons (plastic vs pewter and general availability of the models mainly) have already been raised for this peculiar deployment of land raiders around, but I would like to hear other things about this issue of you can think about them. :D

This player ineptness that you did rise is quite a thing IMO. Basically you are saying "a tank is easier to use than infantry and a big tank easier to use than a regular tank or light one", right? That certainly is someting to take into the equation :) Easiness of usage.

Cheers,

Xavi

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 Post subject: Renegade Legion /Centurion minis
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:43 pm 
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Another reason for LRs is the SMs do tend to lack AT shots, though.  LRs can provide much-needed AT against targets which are difficult to successfully assault, like WEs which are Immune to Panic.

As far as APCs, I can't imagine a SM force without a ton of rhinos and/or razorbacks.  Other rhino variants are also quite effective and popular in the lists and battle reports I've seen.  Fire support seems to primarily be whirlwinds, or devastators in razorbacks.

My guess would be that Predators are a less attractive alternative because they are not specialists.  While preds are very versatile, Tac marines already provide a very flexible core to the army.  That allows other, more specialized support units to outshine the Preds in many situations.

However, all those alternatives (LRs, Whirlwinds, and Razorbacks) are definitely in the "tanks of the line" category, imho, as are the other rhino variants.

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 Post subject: Renegade Legion /Centurion minis
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:54 pm 
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Hi!

As with most GW stuff and fluff their is a lot of "eye candy", meaning big monstrous vehicles and titans tend to rob the soptlight from "lesser" vehicles and grunts because they are less impressive from a readers prespective.

Thats why you find a lot of the old stories concentrate on super heavy tanks, titans or exotic units (although there are several tank/grunt stories that are real good).

You'll find some people may even desire to translate that perception to games, where they may have a little too many super heavy tanks or titans in their armies and not enough regular tanks or infantry. Usually the game punishes you for such narrow and specialized armies and "proper" armies with preponderance of troops, transports and tanks will emerge.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Renegade Legion /Centurion minis
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 11:24 pm 
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Hi,

I don't know about everyone else, but my standard set of Imperial Guard usually consists of 2 combined arms teams (5 leman reuss, 6-10 stds of infantry/hvy infantry mounted in chimeras), 1 leman reuss detachment (10 tanks), 1 maxed out infantry company ( 26 stands inf/hvy inf), and my basilisk artillery company ( 10 tanks).  To this I will add Warhounds, Shadowswords, Baneblades, etc, to fill out the remaining points or fullfill the scenario.  So yes, I have a tank heavy army, but mainly the leman reuss MBT.  This force is flexible, and can handle most of the other armies, with the inherent disadvantages of the Guard, namely lack of speed, AT weapons, and assault troops.  But then, that is why the Guard and the Space Marines were intended to be fielded together in the first place, in my opinion.

my 2cents,

iblisdrax

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 Post subject: Renegade Legion /Centurion minis
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 1:39 am 
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Hi!

I also collect IG forces in a "balanced manner" with infantry, leman russ tanks and artillery being the most plentiful. Specialty units tend to be far less common in proportion to the "bread and butter" units.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Renegade Legion /Centurion minis
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:43 am 
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Yes Xavi, you read me correctly, Tanks are easier to use than Infantry, and Heavy Tanks easier than MBTs ! ?I've seen too many guys play Epic in this manner. I always play/ fight combined arms teams, especially with IG and SM. ?Being a graduate of US Army Combined Arms School and having commanded Co. Teams, I can say I have some working knowledge of this. ?Whether it's a Mech Heavy or Tank Heavy Co. Team or Task Force, combined arms is the way to go. ? That being said, Primarch's comment is valid, G/W likes "Eye Candy" ! ?And many guys playing the game go for this. ?And of course Neal's point is also well taken - in most cases, for Infantry to work with Tanks, they need to be in APCs (Panzer Grenadiers, etc.), I know, I commanded a Mech Co. attached to an Armor Bn. ?Also, I don't believe that SMs have to fight along side the IG to be effective. ?The SMs are a lighter force and require a little more finesse in handling, then the IG. As I said, the IG have a lot of Infantry, Tanks and FA, and can take a little bungling (read inept players). ?I know how to command light forces too, I lead a platoon in the 101. ?So that all being said, your average player will go for the most easy to use ,user friendly force and coolist, biggest toys ... and damn the fluff ! ? And I say "bring it on" ... ?:;):

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 Post subject: Renegade Legion /Centurion minis
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:33 am 
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So we end up with:

1) Easier to play (more error forgiving) so more peiople that doesn't have a high tactical skill uses them. I suppose I would fall in this category as well (not tactical expert) if I ever play Epic, even if I am not in the category of "bigger is best". My experience with real warfare is zero, so guess, heh :)

2) Eye candy for big models

3) Plastic sprues for some of the big toys (dunno, but the LR still looks like the heavy tank of the marines to me over the predator...)

Good points. Thx to everybody for the replies. :)

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 Post subject: Renegade Legion /Centurion minis
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 2:40 pm 
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Marines have no heavy tank. the land raider is large, but it's still a tank. In Epic, it is the largest tank that is not a warengine (it in fact compare way better with a Leman russ than with a baneblade for example), and the classification is the same in Wh40K.

In the first Epic games (well, in SM1 when infantry appeared in core rules), the Land raider was definitely the marines MBT, it was even used by the guard to some extent.

There was 16 LRs in this game box (and 32 rhinos), and if i remember correctly something like 12 in the SM2 box (and 24 rhinos), so it is some of the most current minis many player have. I don't know the number in E40K. Even if they don't play marines, many player usually have many Land Raiders... So if they play marines, it is a good option.

In most "classic" guard armies (when i see some list in battle reports for E:A), there is a Leman russ company and an artillery company. Heavy tanks co is not rare, but it's still much more common to see an IG army without Heavy Tank Co than an IG army without a Leman russ or Arty co, and often both; as Mech infantry formation are also quite common, I think that the most numerous tank definitly ARE MBT and transports.

It wasn't always the case in previous Epic versions, but in E:A i can't see the Super-Heavy winning all the games. The army that was most relying on those (IG) was even underpowered compared with the others (Statistic-wise).

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 Post subject: Renegade Legion /Centurion minis
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:54 pm 
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I started with SM1 and those figures for AFVs sound correct, I just looked at my SM Motor Pool and I have added some Rhinos and Land Raiders, as well. ?Epic is an Infantry based game with many types and machinations for all armies. ?That was one Big difference between DS and Epic, as we saw. In the game as in the real world, the cost of things (points or $) reflects certain paradigms. ?Infantry is most numerous, because they (we) are cheaper/ less expensive to produce. APCs are less costly than Tanks, MBTs are less than Heavy Tanks, etc., etc. ?This is reflected in points cost because in the game it appears in firepower, survivability etc. ?And a Land Raider in "reality" is not an MBT, it is an Infantry Fighting Vehicle (IFV), like an M2 Bradly. ?The Rhino, Chimera and Gorgon II & III are APCs. They carry troops and are relatively lightly armed, like an M113 (I know, I commanded a Mech Co., of 14 of them !). An IFV can carry Infantry and has heavier firepower, like the M2 has a 25mm cannon and TOW AT Missiles. ?The Land Raider has AT weapons and Heavy Bolters, etc. ?So you get the idea. ?Bottom Line - Leman Russ & Predator = MBT. Land Raider & Razorback = IFV. Baneblade = Heavy Tank. Shadowsword = Heavy Assault Gun. ?There's more, but as I said, you get the idea ! ? ? ?:;):

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