Tactical Command
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Marines with few infantry - need advice
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Author:  TuffSkull [ Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Marines with few infantry - need advice
Hi guys,

I'm still relatively unexperienced in actual gaming for E:A, so I'm turning to you for some advice as usual :D

I've been thinking this afternoon & decided that with all thenew models that are coming out, I'm going to put together a small marine army. From the gaming I have done, I belive that tactical detachments are simple one of the best units in the game & have advised a number of players to take a good share of any army in simple tactical detachments.

HOWEVER,
Now I'm looking to do my own army (tournament sized - 2700points) & I'm going to be very limited on the infantry I can field (for reasons that cannot be disclosed at this time).

I'm currently looking at:
1 Tactical detachment, Supreem commander, Hunter ? ? ? ?475
Terminator detachment + 2 drednoughts for flavour ? ? ? ? ?425
Scout detachment + sniper ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?175
Biker detachment ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 200
Predator Detachment ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?300
Land Raider Detachment ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?400
Warhound Titan ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 250

So far that totals 2225points, so I have 475 to play with.

Without adding any more infantry other than terminators, what would you suggest to make this a viable army capable of being competitive?

I want to get another hunter in there to see off enemy airpower, and am pondering a detachment of whirlwinds, but havent seen those in action yet under the new rules.

Any thoughts much appreciated, although I may not be able to reply again for a while - I'm hitting the slopes for a bit of skiing from tommorrow for 7 nights ?:cool:
Author:  mr_mich [ Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Marines with few infantry - need advice
I'm by far the farthest you can get from an E:A marine expert, but if I had some advice it'd be the following.

I understand your dreadnaughts will go with the terminators for flavor, but that just seems like a bad place to put them, as they'll really slow down the terminators and they may never get to see assault.  That would be a true travesty.  If you're not giving transports to the tactical squad, maybe the dreadnaughts could go there?

Aircraft may or may not be your thing, it seems to me like a love/hate thing.  You might want to check out some aircraft of some sort.

Another warhound might be a good idea, seeing as in 2700 points only one titan will be a magnet for all the TK and MW fire you can imagine.

Just a few suggestions, and I can't wait until you can disclose those reasons.  :D
Author:  Markconz [ Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Marines with few infantry - need advice
Aren't standard tournament armies going to be 3000 points?  :o

My advice is to take whirlwinds with another hunter... reason being you have much anti-armour capability but little anti-infantry capability.  Keep your two hunters close to give overlapping air cover.

Not taking more infantry except termies seems strange, but more terminators would be ok, I'd ditch the dreads from your terminators, as they can't teleport I believe.

Also a little airpower might not hurt...

BTW did you get the e-mail I sent you?
Author:  CrimsonFury [ Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Marines with few infantry - need advice
Quote (Markconz @ 27 2004 Feb.,20:30)
Aren't standard tournament armies going to be 3000 points? ?:o

No. 2700 points was deciced upon during the tournament trial runs.

It was choosen because it keeps the amount of models required down, and the play time down (to make sure tournament matches get completed in time), while still allowing players to take a large titan if they want.

With the 1\3 limiation on titans and aircraft, you get 900 points to spend on them. That means if you take one of the large titan (850 points) you can't afford any aircraft. It forces players to choose their WE\aircraft mixture more carefully.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:35 am ]
Post subject:  Marines with few infantry - need advice
Intriguing ... I can't wait to find out why you are limited on Infantry.  That being said ... I agree with some of the suggestions ... Whirlwinds, Hunter and maybe some aircraft.   :;):
Author:  CyberShadow [ Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Marines with few infantry - need advice
Everyone here knows my limited knowledge of Marines, but I would add some Land Speeders for some MW hits. Possibly more armour, whether that is in the form of another Warhound or some tanks such as Vindicators scattered around is up to you.
Author:  CrimsonFury [ Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Marines with few infantry - need advice
A few things to say about SM armoured formations:

IMO vindicator formations are the least useful formation in the SM army. Invidiual vindicators as upgrades are sometimes useful (mainly for an extra unit to absorb hits\BMs and add an extra FF attack).

I think predators are one of the most under-appriceated tank formations (particularly predator annihilators). While they may not be that tough compared to land raiders or leman russes, they pack awesome firepower for thier points cost. They're quite fast too, which gives thems the abilitly to react quickly to distant threats. On double orders they can reach a target 105cm from their starting point with 4x AT5+ shots and 8x AT6+ shots (thats after the -1 modifer for double orders).

Land raiders I only ever use as transports for terminators or devastators. As purely tank formation I don't think they're worth 400 points.

As someone else mentioned, I wouldn't put the dreads with the terminators. Dreads slow the formation down to much. I would only put dreads with formations I was going to garrison to sit on objectives.

Also don't forget that terminators can teleport anywhere on the table if you don't take any transports or additonal units.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Sun Feb 29, 2004 5:33 am ]
Post subject:  Marines with few infantry - need advice
Yes, since Terminators can Teleport and Assault Marines have jump packs, we rarely ever give them transport.  As I said we have been using activation since SM1.  And we never use mixed dets. except with troops being transported and that is generally temporary.  Tank/AFV formations activate separately, as do Infantry, FA, etc. in our system.  It is simpler and stops unit from being large mixed formations.  But that is our opinion, we never planned on playing E:A "out of the box" ...  :;):
Author:  Tas [ Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Marines with few infantry - need advice
I agree with all the above comments, espec. the ones about the dreadies with the termies, the LRaiders and adding Landspeeders.

I would also stick your one and only grunt unit into Razorbacks.  This spreads them out a lot more to make that formation more robust, plus only 1 stand of inf gets lost with each vehicle, rather than 2.  With few sets of legs, this will probably become important.

Intriged about why you cant add more grunts though, and looking forward to finding out!

Hope this helps
Tas
Author:  bloodman [ Sun Feb 29, 2004 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Marines with few infantry - need advice
tuff, you are using the FW mutli part infantry aren't you
Author:  CrimsonFury [ Sun Feb 29, 2004 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Marines with few infantry - need advice
Ah yes, now it makes sense. IIRC Tuffskull had converted some Grey Knights using the forgeworld multi-part infantry :D
Author:  primarch [ Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Marines with few infantry - need advice
Hi!

Was that multi-part infantry just for show or will it be sold?

Primarch
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Marines with few infantry - need advice
I agree that the force might be a bit light on AP firepower, but I don't think it's bad.  Taking the Predator Destructor variant would go a long way towards solving that, as would taking the heavy bolter razorback variants, if you felt it needed fixed.

That said, you have a small number of very expensive units.  That makes your force unusually vulnerable.  I think you would do well to look more at adding bulk than anything else.

These are purely strategic suggestions, since I really don't know your background requirements:

1)  Drop the dreads w/ termies.  Plenty of reasons have been posted so far.

2)  Take formations of cheap units.  Bikes or Speeders are the most obvious.

3)  If you feel you need more AA, take a formation of Thunderbolts, rather than another Hunter.  A whirlwind/hunter formation is small, expensive, and will die a horrible death as soon as anything gets to it.  With your low number of small formations, you don't have the resources to spare protecting it.

4)  The razorbacks for the tacs idea is a good one (sorry, forgot who said it).  That would give you a massive 13-unit formation (6 tacs, 6 razorbacks, 1 hunter) with lots of firepower and assault ability.

5)  If you do the razorbacks, consider moving your commander elsewhere.  Either way, consider adding another commander or two.  Your small formations are fragile.  A few well-placed Librarians, Chaplains, or Captains will go a long way towards increasing your ability in assaults.

To fit my personal preferences, I would go with:

Bike formation
Speeder formation
Commander of some sort
450 points

If you _really_ want AA ability:

Speeder formation
Thunderbolts
2 commanders
450 points


Are scouts out, or just stock marines?

With scouts, you could do the second option as speeders, scouts, thunderbolts for (dropping the other scout sniper) 475 points.

Without the dreads, you could do that first option as speeders, bikes, scouts and a commander (still dropping the scout sniper) for 575. [My personal 1st choice]
Author:  Johnny Rico [ Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Marines with few infantry - need advice
For what it is worth I would say take the whirlwinds with a Hunter.  Putting blast markers onto the enemy is important if you are going to assault them because of the extra point or two that it will give you in the totalling of the Assault phase. :blues:
Author:  Tas [ Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Marines with few infantry - need advice
Quote (nealhunt @ 02 2004 Mar.,04:31)
4) ?The razorbacks for the tacs idea is a good one (sorry, forgot who said it). ?That would give you a massive 13-unit formation (6 tacs, 6 razorbacks, 1 hunter) with lots of firepower and assault ability.

No Problem! :D

I learned this one the hard way, but found that i more than doubles the resiliance of the unit, especially with Knowing No Fear, as you have effectively QUADrupled the number of BMs to break it.
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