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Eldar Scorpion Preview
dafrca
 Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:35 am 
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On the playtest forum they are having an exchange about the use of artillery and I was curious what yu all here think.

Is it still worth having? Do you think it was toned down too much, not enough, or just right?

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:53 am 
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FA - Indirect fire is critical for the WWII type mobile warfare that Epic is based on, IMO. You have heard me rant about this before I'm sure. ?

But in keeping with G/W's comic book take on games, it has rather detailed close combat rules - Doh!!! ?

SM1 still has the best rules for Indirect Fire, they had it close to right, but for some reason dropped it - Doh!!! ?}:)

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MaksimSmelchak
 Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:50 am 
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As long as Deathstrikes ignore terrain and need no line-of-sight, they will be a bargain.

The only situation in which they would stink would be against a pure horde army with no large targets... a rare thing even among Tyranids.

I have yet to seriously evaluate the latest artillary rules past the Deathstrikes.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:51 pm 
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It seems the overwhelming opinion on the boards is that they were toned down too far.  Looking at just numbers (I have no IG to playtest against), I would tend to agree.

Per Jervis' latest input, it seems the most likely fix at this point is that indirect fire will require a Sustained Fire action rather than a Special Action, and will get the +1 to hit.

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MaksimSmelchak
 Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:28 pm 
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Neal,

It seems the overwhelming opinion on the boards is that they were toned down too far.  Looking at just numbers (I have no IG to playtest against), I would tend to agree.

Per Jervis' latest input, it seems the most likely fix at this point is that indirect fire will require a Sustained Fire action rather than a Special Action, and will get the +1 to hit.


The boards are full of rendered Squig!  :;):

They also keep voting to make the Orks into replicas of American Indians in a bad Spaghetti Western!

Artillary has been downgraded quite a bit and I'm apt to agree that it was too much.

I'll play E-A, but I think the rules are going to be seriously flawed if Jervis keeps adjusting for his ideas of "fluff" and "flavour."

I've always wanted to go to a tournament and play Epic, if only once!

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Maksim-Smelchak.

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primarch
 Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 1:13 am 
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Hi!


As long as Deathstrikes ignore terrain and need no line-of-sight, they will be a bargain.

The only situation in which they would stink would be against a pure horde army with no large targets... a rare thing even among Tyranids.

I have yet to seriously evaluate the latest artillary rules past the Deathstrikes.


This seems to be your pet peeve, eh? I read your reasons on the EpicA list and they seem pretty sound, but not much feedback. Aren't the core rules done? Can they still be changed?

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dafrca
 Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:33 pm 
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Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 18 2003 June,20:50)
As long as Deathstrikes ignore terrain and need no line-of-sight, they will be a bargain.

The only situation in which they would stink would be against a pure horde army with no large targets... a rare thing even among Tyranids.

I have yet to seriously evaluate the latest artillary rules past the Deathstrikes.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Please do not base all of your opinions about the need for artillery reform based on the Deathstrikes. :(

To focus on the Deathstrikes would be like if I judged the whole Ork army based only on what the Kult of Speed can do. It would be a major mistake.

Dafrca

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dafrca
 Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:38 pm 
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Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 19 2003 June,07:28)
I've always wanted to go to a tournament and play Epic, if only once!


I too am looking forward to playing in a GT style tournament.

One thing about being part of this playtest I am enjoying is the way some of our ideas do make it into the rules.

I find it a waste to argue about rules once they have been published. This does feel different to me because some of our points have been changed and added into the lists/rules.

Dafrca

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dafrca
 Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:42 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 19 2003 June,17:13)
Aren't the core rules done? Can they still be changed?


Jervis has sent the core of the book to the editors. He has said there will be no major rules changes unless they are really needed. However, he seems open to some adjustments still along with changes in the unit costs or stats as needed.

Combined with the fact that some of the lists are still in the first few waves of testing (Bugs & Eldar) means there is still a lot of room for us to have an effect on the overall product.

Dafrca.

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MaksimSmelchak
 Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 11:07 pm 
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Dafrca,

Please do not base all of your opinions about the need for artillery reform based on the Deathstrikes.  
To focus on the Deathstrikes would be like if I judged the whole Ork army based only on what the Kult of Speed can do. It would be a major mistake.
Dafrca


I'm not basing all of my opinions regarding artillary reform on the Deathstrikes.

However, I still don't think that there's much question that it is an unbalanced unit. Even degrading it and changing it's cost around won't help it too much.

It's was a bargain last time I checked at two for 200 points.

My biggest gripe is that there is literally no defence whatsoever against it. If terrain could at least block line of site then it would be much more reasonable.

I envision every IG player bringing lots of Deathstrikes to tournaments. I would. Wouldn't you?

The only reason not to bring them is if you're playing a theme army or you want a more balanced game.

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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dafrca
 Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:19 am 
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Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 20 2003 June,15:07)
My biggest gripe is that there is literally no defence whatsoever against it. If terrain could at least block line of site then it would be much more reasonable.

I envision every IG player bringing lots of Deathstrikes to tournaments. I would. Wouldn't you?

With all do respect I wonder if you have seen the changes it has taken? What does it bring for its 200 points? Two MW2+ hits.

OK, now that does mean in two turns (can only fire one at a time) and if your fighta-bombers do not kill the 2nd. I would have a very good chance to kill two of your non-War Engines. Or I will get to have a good chance of doing d6 damage to two of your War Engines. OK sounds great, except that I would need to use both on your Gargant and would still not kill it. Let alone the Great Gargant.

Yes, there is a chance I would kill a Supa-Stompa with it or a Battle Fortress. True. So I trade a 100 point Deathstrike for a 100 point Battle Fortress or a 350 point Supa-Stompa, maybe.

Let's look at this...

Deathstrike Average damage roll on a D6 is 3.5; let's say I roll a 4 so it is even numbers.

Supa-Stompa has d3 fields plus four damage points. Average roll for d3 is 1.5, but to be mean I'll drop it to only 1. Total damage is 5 (4+1).

So my big mean Deathstrike does not kill the Supa-Stompa, unless I roll two sixes on the Crit rolls. Then I might.

So do I use my other Deathstrike to finish it off? If I do, it seems a waste of a good D6 Titan Killer. If I do not, I might not kill what ever else I hit. OK, I do. Now your 1 unit in your Stompa Mob took two of my activations and used up all my awesome Deathstrikes. In the mean time your Gargant and your other mobs with their Battlefortresses etc. have moved in. Your 10 plane strong Fighta-bombas has flown two sorties.

I guess you can guess my answer to the question ?I envision every IG player bringing lots of Deathstrikes to tournaments. I would. Wouldn't you?? No, I would not. I might bring one if I thought there was going to be a Great Gargant (soften him up) but that is it.

For that same 200 points I could bring a Super-heavy Tank Platoon (a Shadowsword or Baneblade) both useable every turn and either one just as deadly in the long run. For that same 200 points I could have 2 more Fire Support platoons, a Storm Trooper Platoon, four Hydras (to scatter around the army), four Ogryn Platoons, a Griffon Battery w/ a 50 pt. formation, or an Orbital Support. Any of these things would make better choices for my guard army in a tournament game for those same 200 points.

If you and I were playing just a "bring and slam" game I might feel different, but I don't think so. In a GT game were the focus is on the objectives and the Victory Conditions, the Deathstrike is far from the best formation in the IG arsenal.

Blitzkrieg, Break Their Spirit, Defend The Flag, Take And Hold, and They Shall Not Pass, Deathstrike will not do any of these for me unless you go with the min. sized formations. Then maybe if I am lucky it will help kill the most expensive formation thus helping with Break Their Spirit.

At one time I did not like the Deathstrike because it was just wrong. Period. The most broken formation in the IG army list. Now I think it is just an OK unit with one role, attack and soften up the Titans. Not the broken thing it was back in the playtest version 7 or 8 days.

dafrca

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MaksimSmelchak
 Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 9:58 pm 
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Dafrca,

I haven't yet seen the new list ammendments for E-A artillary or any of the other errata yet.

I'll take your word for it.

By the way, congratulations on the new Ork formation. It was well needed.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:37 pm 
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I see after a very close study of E-A FA rules, how Jervis got away with no spotting or scattering as in SM1. ?

The BPs are very low (1-3) and FA units are small 2-3 guns (that's the way we do it anyway), and only the IG really have any FA in numbers. The rest of the armies only have 1 or 2 types (no M/Mortars or T/guns) so overall I see how he got it to work.

And as said before, with Airstikes - by turn 2-3 much FA will be attrited.

So no spotters, no scatter, limited fire power, the intro of aircraft and it works! And I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it's a simple system that works. ?

And the Airstike vs. Flak paradigm shifts things a bit also. ?

We will stick with the modified SM1 system we have been using, you have to spot it with a command stand, have to call it in, which makes it harder to hit, and there is a possibility of scatter... we like the playability of that. ?

However I see nothing wrong with using the E-A system, because of it's simplicity... :cool:

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primarch
 Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2003 10:31 pm 
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Hi!

I use something similar in Heresy II as you do Legion4. Spotting capability is housed in the command units or recon, not the battery themselves. Artillery is dangerous, put it on target is difficult.

Primarch

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2003 10:42 pm 
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Yes, our Recon too can call in FA. ?

It would be too easy to let FA dominate the game/battlefield and that would not be much of a game. ?

Jervis saw this too, so made it useful but not too deadly... IMO... :D

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