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Planetfall question

 Post subject: Planetfall question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:06 pm 
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Is it allowed to planetfall a formation that has a unit that can't be deployed in this manner and just leave this unit left behind unused in orbit? I expect this would cause the formation to arrive with a blast marker due to the unit left in orbit being out of formation but it may still be worth it if the rules allow.

I'm wondering if I could planetfall a Tau Orca containing Fire Warriors with a Pathfinder upgrade. The Fire Warriors would be on foot but the Pathfinders come with a single Devilfish that unfortunately isn't optional like in some lists.


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 Post subject: Re: Planetfall question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:02 pm 
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I don't think it ever made it to a FAQ, but there was talk about it 10 years ago:

https://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd ... 72#p444872

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 Post subject: Re: Planetfall question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:02 pm 
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seems reasonable to me. I don't even think the BM is needed. You're already down parts but yeah, as an opponent I wouldn't sweat you. Tournament needs to have the organizer answer that though

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 Post subject: Re: Planetfall question
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:17 am 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
seems reasonable to me. I don't even think the BM is needed. You're already down parts but yeah, as an opponent I wouldn't sweat you. Tournament needs to have the organizer answer that though


I would agree with this. I think that paying the points for the transport that is not then used is enough of a penalty, and there shouldn't be BMs as a result (and the missing unit shouldn't factor as a 'loss' for other purposes). They just decided not to take the taxi. Effectively, that's what happens when a Marine player swaps out Rhinos for Drop Pods.

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 Post subject: Re: Planetfall question
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:59 am 
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CyberShadow wrote:
jimmyzimms wrote:
seems reasonable to me. I don't even think the BM is needed. You're already down parts but yeah, as an opponent I wouldn't sweat you. Tournament needs to have the organizer answer that though


I would agree with this. I think that paying the points for the transport that is not then used is enough of a penalty, and there shouldn't be BMs as a result (and the missing unit shouldn't factor as a 'loss' for other purposes). They just decided not to take the taxi. Effectively, that's what happens when a Marine player swaps out Rhinos for Drop Pods.


Disagree, that is a Marine specific GT "special rule" that allows them to leave/not take transports so they can garrison , go in air transports or pods. It is not a rule for any other army

If an air transport came on the table to pick up a formation and had to leave a unit behind, for any reason, the formation would take BMs for each unit left behind. I see this as no different , for me the formation would have to take a BM for each unit left behind, if, it was allowed at an event. For non event games you can do or try whatever your opponent agrees to.

I think UK tournament organisers have already said they would not allow similar things to this at events .


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 Post subject: Re: Planetfall question
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:37 pm 
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Ok thanks guys. I'm still a bit unclear and was hoping it would be possible to do - and I was assuming I'd get a BM for leaving the vehicle behind in orbit out of formation - but reading the other linked thread it seems like it's probably not allowed (no definitive consensus there but most seemed against it).


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 Post subject: Re: Planetfall question
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:41 pm 
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dptdexys wrote:
Disagree, that is a Marine specific GT "special rule" that allows them to leave/not take transports so they can garrison , go in air transports or pods. It is not a rule for any other army

If an air transport came on the table to pick up a formation and had to leave a unit behind, for any reason, the formation would take BMs for each unit left behind. I see this as no different , for me the formation would have to take a BM for each unit left behind, if, it was allowed at an event. For non event games you can do or try whatever your opponent agrees to.

I think UK tournament organisers have already said they would not allow similar things to this at events .


To my mind, the blast marker represents the disorder following a unit being hit and 'killed', beyond just it not being there. If they made the decision not to take a unit from the start of the game, this 'blast marker' could have been on turn -4 for example, if it even registers as an effect. But to be honest, you are correct that there is a Marine specific rule for it and so it would seem strange to then apply this to non-Marine forces. This could go either way and I would be fine with whatever a tournament organiser went with.

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 Post subject: Re: Planetfall question
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 7:39 pm 
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Good question.

RE Space Marines
In the army list (space marine epic uk) it details -
"All Space Marine armies are highly flexible and tactical. Before each tournament game the Space Marine
player may choose which formations with the ‘plus transport’ aspect are deployed in Rhinos, Drop Pods or
on foot. If the formation has any units unable to deploy in Drop Pods then that option cannot be selected."

The lawyers amongst us will note that if taken literally, other transports (thunderhawks, landraiders etc) arent mentioned, but lets just assume past that.

Technically the details for marines with "any units" would scuttle the question. So if you are at a tournmanet with a space ship, and a tactical company that also has a hunter, you couldnt dump the hunter and use drop pods.
I think this is quite harsh, you've spent points on the hunter, so really you are being peanlised allready.

As an aside, I can see the chat is walking into the blast marker debate -
Do you get a blast marker for, failed dangerous terrain, leaving a unit behind, sacrificing (chaos), standing too close to a blowing up war engine, taking a crit that causes a wound (if you are the war engine).
Definetly one to agree in advance. What I have seen in the UK, is that blast markers are only used for kills by enemies.
Certainly, I dont think a chaos player would sacrifice (before an assault) if it meant getting a BM.
And personally I feel it really does add insult to injury, when something horrid has already happended to you (your reaver stumbles in dangerous terrain, fails again on re-roll, then goes crit, then your wife leaves you for your brother, - and you get a BM).


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 Post subject: Re: Planetfall question
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:04 pm 
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Dan 1314 wrote:
Do you get a blast marker for, failed dangerous terrain, leaving a unit behind, sacrificing (chaos), standing too close to a blowing up war engine, taking a crit that causes a wound (if you are the war engine).
Definetly one to agree in advance. What I have seen in the UK, is that blast markers are only used for kills by enemies.

Dan - you might want to read over the rulebook and lists more as the rules are clear on all those. The norm is you take a blast marker any time a unit dies or a WE loses a point of DC (and not just as a direct result of being shot by the enemy) unless the rules state otherwise in that instance.

So yes you do get a blast marker for per unit dying for being out of formation, critical hit damage (e.g. an undamaged Shadowsword gets a crit on it’s first point of damage loss and dies and this places 3 BM on the other Shadowswords in it’s formation), damage from being near an exploding titan, etc.

The only two things in your list that don’t cause a blast marker are damage from a failed dangerous terrain test and a chaos champion sacrificing himself to summon. In both cases the relevant section of the rules/list specifically state this doesn’t cause a BM in an exception to the usual.


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 Post subject: Re: Planetfall question
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:11 pm 
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Ehm, I think you will find that your wife leaving you also doesnt cause blast markers. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Planetfall question
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:32 pm 
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Oh no! Sorry to hear your wife left you Dan. Think you said you only got married a few months ago.

Oh well I guess at least you’ll have more time and spare pennies to keep flying to play at the Epic tournaments?


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 Post subject: Re: Planetfall question
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:14 pm 
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Dave wrote:
I don't think it ever made it to a FAQ, but there was talk about it 10 years ago:

https://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd ... 72#p444872

Well according to Neal’s post in that thread, he did present a FAQ that was framed in response to this general question, while answering the specific question on Marine transport flexibility.

The summary of that lengthy discussion in 2012 is
  • Some felt that dropping units to allow a different deployment option was not in the rules, and thus should not be allowed. A few went as far as to suggest it was incorrect to use a FAQ to change the rules, which should be done as an errata (or now as a correction to the Living rules)
  • It was noted that transport choices were made when building the army. However, any deployment choices (if possible) were made at the start of the game. While this usually means whether the formation can Garrison, fly or planetfall etc, it was noted that under certain circumstances the UK permitted the transport of a Marine formation to change (Rhinos to pods etc).
  • Some were ambivalent to dropping units in principle, but that there should not be a material gain in doing so; dropping Guardians from a formation reinforced with Wraithguard to fit into a Vampire was discussed at length
  • No-one discussed BMs or other penalties in doing so, although my recollection of earlier discussions were that BMs were inappropriate - the formation has arrived in a planned depleted state, not the result of enemy action
  • One suggestion made at the end of the thread (which I like) was that only upgrades could be dropped in this manner, which neatly sidesteps some more contentious issues.
  • For clarity, the full value of the formation should be used when considering victory conditions.
  • Either way, I suggest the relevant FAQ should be amended to resolve this question for once and for all.


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