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The Joys of shooting

 Post subject: The Joys of shooting
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:33 pm 
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So, I was explaining the game to a new player (total lie, actually a player that has played hundreds of games but doesnt listen - still, same difference). And we found that rare and annoying situation where a unit is shooting with some guns at the peak of thier range, and I wanted to see if everyone was consistent in this - as its one of the toughter things to explain (at least teh way I've seen it played).

To provide an example,
a space marine tactical squad with a hunter is shooting at an ork wrband that includes a battlewagon.
The marines are exactly 45cm away from a single grot. The rest of the orcs and the battlewagon are within 60cm (the hunters range).

And another example
a Warlord titan is shooting at the same hapless orks, the single grot this time is inside 60 cm of the gattling carrying titan, whilst all the other units are within the volcano cannons 90cm.

I would tackle both in the same way, - if one unit is in range for a weapon, and more units are in range for another weapon, then all units are in range for all weapons. (it would be different if their was no units in range, or no units in renage for that type - e.g. AP).

So example 1, the marines would fire AP, and hit everything within 60 cm, and the hunter would fire its AT.
And example 2, all the orks get to enjoy all the gattling shots before being hit by the volcano.

I understand this is being one of those tought to explain rules that makes the game simpler (and faster), but its areal nuisance to explain. Especially with combined units and units taht are AT and AP.


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 Post subject: Re: The Joys of shooting
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:50 pm 
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I've seen AT hits stretched with longer AT range (and AP with AP), but never AP with AT (or vice verse). The way the rules are written though it seems legit as nowhere does it say to treat AP and AT as separate pools of hits. You simply need range and LoS to roll to hit, and after that all those hits are assigned to enemy units if they're in range and LoS of one of your units (with no mention of AP/AT at that point). Only a few sentences into allocating hits do we hear about AP and AT allocation.

I have a feeling the answer would have been "no, you can't do it like that" back in the day, but now I think this might be another 5-min warmup thing.

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 Post subject: Re: The Joys of shooting
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:31 am 
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Dave wrote:
I've seen AT hits stretched with longer AT range (and AP with AP), but never AP with AT (or vice verse).

Agree with Dave, this would be my initial reaction as well.
Wouldn't be impressed mid-game by an attempt to use AP to stretch AT if it hadn't been clarified before the game that was what we were doing. Fair enough if the rules run that way as Dave says, but not sure ive ever had it played that way (might just be forgetting!).

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 Post subject: Re: The Joys of shooting
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:06 am 
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Have I misunderstood something?
When we play a unit can only place hits on units that are in range of the individual unit. Say a SM tactical unit can only place hits on enemy units withing 45 of it, and not on the units further back in the enemy formation that is more than 45cm away from the SM Tac unit... Is that wrong? Or can you actually "boost" range on units, if they have a unit attached that can shoot further, as long as they have range to the closest enemy?

Making myself more clear (I hope):
4 x SM Tac unit in a formation have 45 to closest enemy, and 80 to the one furthest away.
SM Tac formation have a hunter (range 60) in formation.
The 3 SM Tac units can allocate hits to enemies that are 45, 60 or 80 cm within? I believe 60 is the right answer, while I have always played with 45cm?


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 Post subject: Re: The Joys of shooting
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:11 am 
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Starkad10 wrote:
Have I misunderstood something?
When we play a unit can only place hits on units that are in range of the individual unit. Say a SM tactical unit can only place hits on enemy units withing 45 of it, and not on the units further back in the enemy formation that is more than 45cm away from the SM Tac unit... Is that wrong? Or can you actually "boost" range on units, if they have a unit attached that can shoot further, as long as they have range to the closest enemy?

You shoot at an enemy formation, not at individual units in the enemy formation.

So:
You find out which of your units are in range to fire by measuring to the closest visible unit in the target formation.
When you allocate hits to the target formation, they're allocated to any visible unit that was in range of anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: The Joys of shooting
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:49 pm 
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What IJW said, and to reiterate:

1) Anything in range and LoS rolls to hit
2) hits are pooled
3) hits are assigned closest to furthest, up to the last unit in range and LoS or a unit in the attacking formation

Your missile launcher hits will be "stretched" to include anything within the hunter's range.

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 Post subject: Re: The Joys of shooting
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:26 pm 
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By the Emperor! Today I have learned something new! Thanks for the answer!


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 Post subject: Re: The Joys of shooting
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:18 pm 
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In the UK tourney scene, I've only ever seen it done using AP weapon ranges to stretch AP hits and AT weapon ranges to stretch AT hits.
It has come up a few times before and as far as I remember it was ruled by organisers that way.


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 Post subject: Re: The Joys of shooting
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:41 pm 
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As in, you don't allow AP to stretch AT hits, and vice versa?

One thing that supports the above is the last sentence of 2.2.6:

Quote:
Hits from macro-weapons can only be applied to units that are in a position to be hit by a macro-weapon.


You can't use AP and AT ranges to stretch MW hits, and the same goes for AA as well (as the aircraft needs to come into range of the AA weapon in order for a to-hit roll to be made). Given that, I think it's highly likely that the intension was the same for AP and AT attacks.

I'm fine ruling it that way via a FAQ, unless there's a community out there that's not playing it that way.

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 Post subject: Re: The Joys of shooting
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:50 am 
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We've always played with stretching happening per weapon type as well. Similarly the cover modifiers are applied per target type. Also the 2008 FAQ did have that speed rolling example which pools rolls (and btw doesn't seem to exist NetEA FAQs.

Quote:
1.9.5 Roll To Hit
Q: Is there any way to speed up the dice rolling when firing?
It is possible to speed up dice rolling without altering the overall result of shooting by allocating hits against units of the same type as a group, and then making all of the saves together, and finally removing casualties from the models closest to the enemy.
For example, if a unit of six Space Marines and Three Rhinos took 3 AP hits and 2 AT hits, then the defender
could simply say "I allocate the AP hits to the Marines and the AT hits to the Rhinos". He would then roll 3 dice for the Marines saves, removing any casualties by eliminating the Marine units closest to the enemy, followed by rolling 2 dice for the Rhino's saves and removing any casualties in a similar manner. Please note that you will need to agree with your opponent that it's okay to use this method to allocate hits in this way, and that even if an opponent agrees, the opponent can still ask for you to use the 'official' method in situations where the opponent feels it is warranted.


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 Post subject: Re: The Joys of shooting
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:04 pm 
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It doesn’t stretch per weapon type, other than Macro Weapon hits.

EDIT
Hena2 wrote:
We've always played with stretching happening per weapon type as well. Similarly the cover modifiers are applied per target type.

And cover modifiers aren't either. You choose for the entire formation whether you're shooting into cover or not.

Or are you saying that you're doing this as a (quite sensible) house-rule?

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 Post subject: Re: The Joys of shooting
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:32 pm 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
It doesn’t stretch per weapon type, other than Macro Weapon hits.

EDIT
Hena2 wrote:
We've always played with stretching happening per weapon type as well. Similarly the cover modifiers are applied per target type.

And cover modifiers aren't either. You choose for the entire formation whether you're shooting into cover or not.

Or are you saying that you're doing this as a (quite sensible) house-rule?

Eh, cover is divided per unit type. From FAQ

Q: If a target formation has infantry in cover and armoured vehicles not in cover will my AT to hit rolls suffer the -1 modifier?
A: No, and the same holds for the situation in reverse (AV in cover, INF out of cover).


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 Post subject: Re: The Joys of shooting
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:11 pm 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
It doesn’t stretch per weapon type, other than Macro Weapon hits.

EDIT
Hena2 wrote:
We've always played with stretching happening per weapon type as well. Similarly the cover modifiers are applied per target type.

And cover modifiers aren't either. You choose for the entire formation whether you're shooting into cover or not.

Or are you saying that you're doing this as a (quite sensible) house-rule?



From the Official Epic Armageddon FAQ

Quote:
Q: When shooting at a formation where some units are in cover and others are not you can elect whether
to shoot at targets in cover (in which case you take the -1 penalty) or not (in which case you don't). What is the
scope of this decision?
• The entire shooting formation?
• Each shooting weapon type?
• Each shooting unit?
• By damage type (AT vs. AP)?
• Each shooting weapon?
• Unspecified, work it out with your
opponent?
For example, if someone shoots at my tactical formation, which has three exposed rhinos and six marines in
cover, does the attacker have to take the -1 to hit the rhinos (which is AT fire), if he wants the tactical marines to be potential targets for his AP fire?

A: The choice to shoot at in-cover or out of-cover targets must be done by the entire formation. It can only be separated by type of weapon fire. If you had AT, AP, and MW fire in one salvo, you could fire AT at out-of-cover, AP at in-cover and MW at in-cover. Or any other arrangement, as long as all of each fire type (AP, AT, MW) is directed solely at one target type (in-cover or out-of-cover).
You cannot split up targetting of a single type of fire. If an IG infantry company had 2 units out of cover and 10 units in cover and you were firing with, say, 8 AP shots, you could not target 4 AP at out-of-cover and 4 at in-cover. All the AP shots would have to be directed at a single target type.


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 Post subject: Re: The Joys of shooting
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:02 pm 
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Thanks and thanks, my error!

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