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Should aircraft contest when landing?

 Post subject: Re: Should aircraft contest when landing?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:06 pm 
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We use in here the modification that aircraft cannot contest on turn they land as no-one here likes that. I'm the main marine player and don't have issue with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Should aircraft contest when landing?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:15 pm 
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Has anyone ever tried moving the capture and contest of objectives to the beginning of the turn? Not just for AC but all forces? With this I mean that an objective will only become captured or contested at the beginning of the turn, so during a “check victory conditions” what ever objectives you had at the start of turn 3 is what you got,(given the formations are still alive and unbroken) but other points for say BTS etc are granted as they occur. So Moving into cap distance in turn 3 won’t capture or contest an objective until the beginning of turn 4.
Guess it would be quite a dramatic overhaul........
It would force Aircraft maneuvers and drop lists to launch in turn 2 instead of leaving an empty table for two thirds of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Should aircraft contest when landing?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:57 am 
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Change like that would mean that rallied formations could then contest and control. Also if you check at beginning of turn 3, that could mean that game ends after 2 turns. Any army that is slow would have problems taking objectives in that time.


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 Post subject: Re: Should aircraft contest when landing?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:38 am 
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But I don’t mean you win can win in the beginning of the turn ”check victory”would still occur at the end. it’s a delay. If I move into 15cm of your blitz in turn 3, I mean it wouldn’t be captured until turn 4, contested , maybe.
You could think of it as taking time to secure the area, bunker down and then you’re holding the objective. Rallied formations would contest as they do now , that wouldn’t be different. It would basically only mean, you’d have to move within 15cm of an objective and wait until the beginning of next turn to have it captured.
As a result , during “check victory” in turn 2 for example , to have an objective in turn two , You’d have to have been there when turn two began.

If you mean during that time , a broken formation can rally in the end of the turn you moved in and contest, the still do that as the rules are now , since rally takes place before “check victory”.

Or I could explain it like this. Let’s say we introduce a little captured objective flag.
When turn 1 begins, I put a captured flag on every uncontested objective I’m within 15cm of. Likely it would be the Blitz, and maybe one garrisoned formation gets to put a flag on one. During turn 1 I then move into 15cm of
another objective, (but flags are placed at the beginning of the turn, so now flag there). At the end of turn one, given all three of these objectives remained uncontested, I would then still only have two flags (captured objectives) , where in the current format I would be holding 3 objectives. As turn 2 begins , I now get to put a flag on that third objective, if I now manage to move up on a 4th objective, no flag, at the end of turn 2, 3 objectives , in current format 4. Right? Or am I missing
something somewhere , that messes this up?

Although you are likely right in that slow armies would suffer , since they can’t grab a new objective in the same turn.

But it’s just a mind experiment, I can’t say I’m sure on all what all the effects of this might be, maybe I’ll try testing it, and I can report on what mayhem it caused lol


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 Post subject: Re: Should aircraft contest when landing?
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 9:48 am 
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How many armies have war engine fliers that can land and contest? Come to think of it some armies have skimmer fighter bomber transports that can do the same thing.

List of armies/races, list of craft that can do this trick.

Space marines/Grey Knights: Thunderhawk gunship Bomber, Landing Craft Bomber, Storm Ravens (black templars - both transport and gunships) planetfall AV skimmer, storm eagle Fighter Bomber, Stormbird WE Bomber Planetfall.

Orks: Ork Landa Bomber.

Tau: Manta WE support craft planetfall, Orca Bomber planetfall.

Eldar: Vampire raider WE Bomber planetfall.

Dark Eldar: Slave Bringer WE Bomber planetfall, Executor Landing Module WE Support Craft Self Planetfall

Chaos Marines: Thunderhawk gunship WE Bomber planetfall

Necrons: A Night Sythe can fly over and portal in a formation from reserves.

Squats and some Imperial guard lists: Their tunnelers can try a risky maneuver and hope on turn 3 or 4 they might need a formation in the enemies half. They have to tell the enemy which turn a formation will arrive, but not where. If they are lucky to be able to win on that turn, they might just pull off the same effect.

Only Mechanicus, Titans, Skitarri, Knights, Sisters and Tyranids seem to lack a way to perform this sort of trick, or attempt something similar. Nids can still use Mycetic Spores, but drop pods are used in a number of armies.

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 Post subject: Re: Should aircraft contest when landing?
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 3:59 pm 
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Sorry, I didn't notice the reply. So this is really late :).

Cyguns wrote:
But I don’t mean you win can win in the beginning of the turn ”check victory”would still occur at the end. it’s a delay. If I move into 15cm of your blitz in turn 3, I mean it wouldn’t be captured until turn 4, contested , maybe.
You could think of it as taking time to secure the area, bunker down and then you’re holding the objective. Rallied formations would contest as they do now , that wouldn’t be different. It would basically only mean, you’d have to move within 15cm of an objective and wait until the beginning of next turn to have it captured.

That is wrong. A formation which rallies on the end phase of that turn, cannot control or contest objectives, see 6.1.4.

Quote:
As a result , during “check victory” in turn 2 for example , to have an objective in turn two , You’d have to have been there when turn two began.

If you mean during that time , a broken formation can rally in the end of the turn you moved in and contest, the still do that as the rules are now , since rally takes place before “check victory”.

Or I could explain it like this. Let’s say we introduce a little captured objective flag.
When turn 1 begins, I put a captured flag on every uncontested objective I’m within 15cm of. Likely it would be the Blitz, and maybe one garrisoned formation gets to put a flag on one. During turn 1 I then move into 15cm of
another objective, (but flags are placed at the beginning of the turn, so now flag there). At the end of turn one, given all three of these objectives remained uncontested, I would then still only have two flags (captured objectives) , where in the current format I would be holding 3 objectives. As turn 2 begins , I now get to put a flag on that third objective, if I now manage to move up on a 4th objective, no flag, at the end of turn 2, 3 objectives , in current format 4. Right? Or am I missing
something somewhere , that messes this up.

I may misunderstand, but objectives don't have memory. When you check for objectives, you check if you have a unit within 15cm away from it. If you don't, you don't control it, regardless of the situation in previous turns.


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 Post subject: Re: Should aircraft contest when landing?
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 6:26 pm 
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Right, for some reason I thought rallying units could come back to contest, but that’s all good.

This mind experiment is not about memory. It’s about arriving at the objective. And stay there until the following turn , and that’s when you officially capture it. So rather than memory, you can think of the objective being slow To notice it’s been captured. I think of it as Troops securing the area and setting up “defensive” positions during the turn they arrive, and only at the start of the next turn, they have it captured.

Now if they move away, the objective is naturally lost in the same moment they move away further than 15cm.
So, in theory, if you captured the objective at the start of the turn, you take a double move, move out of 15cm (loose the objective) then move right back, then now, you don’t have it back yet. Now you have to wait until the following turn to have it captured again. Not sure if this cleared things up. But all I’m really changing in this experiment, is setting the timing of the capture of objectives to the beginning of the turn. (Before teleports)


So here we have the section of the rules you referred to.


You capture an objective if you have a unit within 15cms of it (in the begging of the turn)[ in the end phase] and your opponent does not.An objective is contested if both sides have a unit within 15cms of it in the end phase. Units from broken formations or from formations that have rallied that end phase can not capture or contest objectives. Aircraft which have landed may not capture an objective on the same turn that it lands. However, a landed aircraft may immediately contest an objective.

Check at the end of each turn to see how many objectives you control. Objectives do not have a memory and you will lose control of any you have captured if there are no friendly units within 15cms of them at the end of any subsequent turn.

That’s basically what I’m tinkering with is putting (in the beginning of the turn) in and [in the end phase] out, all else remains the same xD

But like I said, it’s a mind experiment I’ll look to try out, see how it pans out in a real game


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 Post subject: Re: Should aircraft contest when landing?
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 9:03 pm 
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I think the solution is harder than problem. You also now remove option of moving to it during turn to take control. Maneuvering is big part of epic and wouldn't want to slow it down. So to try to win during turn 3, you'd have to be 15cm from it at the start of turn 3, which most ground formations would struggle to do. Also this requires you to remember (or mark) which objectives are being controlled instead of quickly checking for it. So simpler to say aircrafts can't affect objectives during the turn they land.

But sure let us know how it goes when you try it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Should aircraft contest when landing?
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 10:04 pm 
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Exactly! It would favor mobile armies quite a lot, and likely a little too much. But I’m still curious to try it out.

And just so it’s said, I kinda trailed off a bit from the specific question about Aircraft contestants, my apologies, it’s an idea that spawned thinking of entire drop lists , waiting on turn three to start the game.

But maybe it could be something for a special scenario


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 Post subject: Re: Should aircraft contest when landing?
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 2:28 am 
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I totally don’t get what you are suggesting. I just don’t see the advantage is of checking in the start of the turn. It’s unclear to me if you mean to suggest that you check victory conditions at the start (and so can win there and then), in which case the only thing I can think of that would be different is that now formations that rally or land at the end of the turn would now be able to capture immediately afterwards, which seems to me a negative. Everything else is the same. If on the other hand you mean that you still check for winning in the end phase but count the positions of formations as they were at the beginning then whilst landing aircraft now face risk, the benefit for rallied formations persists except now you can also freely march them off into a corner without having to worry about staying near the objective. I genuinely don’t understand what benefit this is to the game - it’s not like the units can do anything by choice in between the end of the turn and the beginning.

Unless you are suggesting that you can now wi

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 Post subject: Re: Should aircraft contest when landing?
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 11:26 pm 
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Well, I’m not sure there is a benefit either , but I wanna explore what impact it might have to movement and strategy. But your last assumption is the correct one as it pertains to “check victory” that is still done in the end phase, that’s why you might want a “cap flag“ marker , with witch you can mark what objectives you captured in the beginning of the turn , However, as I said , the objectives still don’t have memory, so even tho you captured it in the beginning of the turn, you must stay within 15 to hold it, if you move away, you loose it, and would have to remove that “cap“ marker during the turn.

But this experiment is an idea I have to stress the timing, it would stress all list, but a full on drop list especially would have to drop stuff at the end of turn 2 in order to get into position to capture objectives in turn 3

But your skepticism is warranted , as this might have all kinds of strange implications, but I’ll try it out at some but , just for the heck of it


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 Post subject: Re: Should aircraft contest when landing?
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 12:01 am 
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OK I see what you’re saying, simply you have to hold an objective for a complete turn. You’d have to establish what counts as contesting, ie do you have to be contesting the whole turn too or just for a moment within it, at the beginning, at the end etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Should aircraft contest when landing?
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 1:59 am 
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Nah you would contest the objectives as normal, I’m thinking of it fluff wise, that it takes time to secure the objective area and “set up Defensive positions” so to speak , but as an enemy comes close , the objective is immediately in contention


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