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Flying Questions

 Post subject: Flying Questions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:54 pm 
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Ok, entirely related to the tournament at the weekend...
but wanted some clarity on some flying rules.

1. Does a landed aircraft (Thunderhawk) have -1 to its AA in the end phase (we are assuming it flew in that turn and has remained landed)?

2. Can you roll a 7 to activate? (Think about a Doomwing, 3 planes), they have an activation of 2+.
If they get shot at on the way in (1bm), shot on the way out (1bm), take two casualties (2bm) and fly off the opponents table edge. (sure this has never happened, but the thread has been quite recently, so why not have some debate)

3. If a transport lands and receives a critical hit, what happens to troops inside. The FAQ says they save like a destroyed war engine. - I had previously played crashes and burns. - does this include if there is an air assault into a unit on overwatch that shoots the transport with AT?

4. Is there a limit to standing down (say if you had 8 thunderhawks.....), can you burn activation after activation standing down? - I remember Tim saying something about only being able to stand down twice.

5. BTS. If the BTS is in a transport and is not on the board at the end of turn 3 or 4 does this count as a BTS point for the opponent? - I know Necrons have this as a rule. I recall a discussion about it becoming the next highest unit. so if say you had Terms as BTS, but they didnt come on, and your next most expensive unit was scouts (yes this is Rob's list) would killing a squad of Scouts give you BTS? Would it matter if they died in turn one? Would it make a difference if you killed a Thawk? (it being more expensive than the scouts), or for that reason a squad of T-bolts?

Ok - dont worry to much about the seriousness of this, I just wanted to see some minds at work over the absurdities we have brought to the game. :)

thanks kindly


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 Post subject: Re: Flying Questions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:28 pm 
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Have you tried playing aeronautica instead? ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Flying Questions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:39 pm 
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Blip wrote:
Have you tried playing aeronautica instead? ;-)


This thought has crossed my mind a couple of times too ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Flying Questions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:57 pm 
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1. I would say yes it suffers -1 - it is to stop units rushing over to AA stuff.

4. There is no limit

5. In turn 3 onwards, the BTS formation is the one that has the highest possible BTS cost of those that are either on the board or destroyed (regardless of what turn they were destroyed in). So if you destroyed some scouts in turn one, and in turn 3 no thunderhawks or terminators remain on the board, you would achieve BTS. If in turn 4 the termies entered play and remained at the end of the turn, you wouldn't have BTS.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying Questions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:30 pm 
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Dan 1314 wrote:

1. Does a landed aircraft (Thunderhawk) have -1 to its AA in the end phase (we are assuming it flew in that turn and has remained landed)?

If it moved that turn (made an approach move) then yes it takes -1 in the end phase, if it reamained from the turn before or fires AA before end phase then no it does not take the -1.

Quote:
2. Can you roll a 7 to activate? (Think about a Doomwing, 3 planes), they have an activation of 2+.
If they get shot at on the way in (1bm), shot on the way out (1bm), take two casualties (2bm) and fly off the opponents table edge. (sure this has never happened, but the thread has been quite recently, so why not have some debate)

No you cannot roll 7+ to activate, rule book only states "SPECIAL RULE 7+ to hit" not to activate.

Quote:
3. If a transport lands and receives a critical hit, what happens to troops inside. The FAQ says they save like a destroyed war engine. - I had previously played crashes and burns. - does this include if there is an air assault into a unit on overwatch that shoots the transport with AT?

If a crital comes from AA attacks then it does as it states on the tin, if it comes from ground attacks then troops on board should make any applicable save rolls (as the FAQ states) but you will get arguments from players not realising that is the case.

Quote:
4. Is there a limit to standing down (say if you had 8 thunderhawks.....), can you burn activation after activation standing down? - I remember Tim saying something about only being able to stand down twice.

No limit on stand downs.
Quote:
5. BTS. If the BTS is in a transport and is not on the board at the end of turn 3 or 4 does this count as a BTS point for the opponent? - I know Necrons have this as a rule. I recall a discussion about it becoming the next highest unit. so if say you had Terms as BTS, but they didnt come on, and your next most expensive unit was scouts (yes this is Rob's list) would killing a squad of Scouts give you BTS? Would it matter if they died in turn one? Would it make a difference if you killed a Thawk? (it being more expensive than the scouts), or for that reason a squad of T-bolts?

Any formation that is off board when BTS is calculated (end of turn 3 onwards) does not count as being the BTS unless the rules specifically state otherwise (necrons).
The most expensive formation that is on board or was destroyed can count for BTS, this could be scouts or t/bolts if no more expensive formation survives on the table when BTS is calculated.
Goals are only checked for from the end of turn 3 so no need to check for most expensive until then.
In the situation you state above the BTS could be gained by an opponent in turn 3 but lost to them in turn 4 if the Terminators make it to the table and survive.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying Questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:11 am 
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On the THawk and other air-transports, I agree that flying on as an approach move would result in a -1 to AA in the end phase.
But this would not apply if the unit arrived by Planetfalling as it has not made a ‘move’ as such (which is why planetfalling does not trigger O/W).

Otherwise I agree with Dptdexys.

The point about the BTS is key. Effectively it is the biggest formation dead or alive, ‘on the table’, at the end of the turn. Obviously if it is dead, then the opponent has gained that particular goal.
I believe the opponent still has the goal if the game continues another turn and a bigger unit enters the battlefield, though others would need to confirm this.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying Questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:33 am 
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It's only a good debate once Ginger joins :)

I can't see it because it would then create even more confusion with the Necron's.
E.g their BTS unit is broken in turn three and leaves the board, but the opponent only has one nil.
The BTS rallies and comes back...... but the opponent had killed the 2nd highest cost unit.
Or in the terminator's example (same Eldar) if the BTS is extracted because the player knows they are not going to lose that turn (being safe in other objectives) and intends to re-use their BTS, that would be a difficult chat... :)


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 Post subject: Re: Flying Questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:35 am 
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My view is the BTS can change from turns 3 to 4, ie bringing on a more expensive formation and leaving it there can deny a previously held BTS, rather like TnH can change turn to turn. The rules do say you check victory conditions at the end of each turn form 3 onwards, which is not conclusive but I'll take it! It may not sound like it when writing it down, but IMO it plays more intuitively too this way, Dan's example being one reason.

Not sure what I would do for planetfalling flak to be honest, probably dice for it. It's not a move, but the analogy to overwatch is a red herring as approach moves don't trigger overwatch either. However the same situation applies to teleport, which is arguably a better analogy (pylons), but then planetfalling seems slightly more "move like" than teleporting maybe? Meh, dunno.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying Questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:47 am 
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Necrons are the one race which specify off-table forces also count as destroyed, hence breaking the Necron BTS in the 3rd turn will give you the goal. (Check their special rules on the army sheet).

As to rechecking each turn, this was debated years ago, but I cannot find the thread. I agree that control of Objectives can change from one turn to the next, but had a feeling at the back of my mind that gaining the BTS goal was different - though could well be wrong. ;) :D


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 Post subject: Re: Flying Questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:56 am 
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Ginger wrote:
On the THawk and other air-transports, I agree that flying on as an approach move would result in a -1 to AA in the end phase.
But this would not apply if the unit arrived by Planetfalling as it has not made a ‘move’ as such (which is why planetfalling does not trigger O/W).



So does an approach move trigger overwatch then? :{[]


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 Post subject: Re: Flying Questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:35 am 
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Originally it did, until people started using Deathstrikes and other Titan-Killer weapons on O/W to wipe out air-assaulting THawks etc, which became less amusing.

The point about planetfalling is that it is merely a way of placing units on the table, not an activation as such and thus not a move. So unless the landed transport declares a move as it’s activation (with a 0cm movement capacity this seems unlikely ;) ) it would not incur the -1 to AA at the end of the turn


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 Post subject: Re: Flying Questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:54 am 
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Ginger wrote:
Originally it did, until people started using Deathstrikes and other Titan-Killer weapons on O/W to wipe out air-assaulting THawks etc, which became less amusing.



So is there any actual rule or FAQ that says you cant fire from overwatch on a aircraft that lands given that it has just completed a move? I would find shooting a Thawk with a deathstrike quite amusing.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying Questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:57 pm 
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From the Net-EA Tournament pack:-
Quote:
Q: Do units that enter play via a special rule (landing, planetfall, self planetfall, teleporting, tunneling, being summoned or swarmed) trigger overwatch fire?
A: No, only completing a move or disembarking triggers overwatch.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying Questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:22 pm 
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thanks that'll do :)


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 Post subject: Re: Flying Questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:44 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
Originally it did, until people started using Deathstrikes and other Titan-Killer weapons on O/W to wipe out air-assaulting THawks etc, which became less amusing.

The point about planetfalling is that it is merely a way of placing units on the table, not an activation as such and thus not a move. So unless the landed transport declares a move as it’s activation (with a 0cm movement capacity this seems unlikely ;) ) it would not incur the -1 to AA at the end of the turn
Deathstrikes didn't require line of sight when they shot either, regardless of action. Fun times :)

By the way on the topic of planetfalling aircraft making moves, if they engage it would trigger overwatch for "completing a move" even if it didn't move any distance. This can and does come up fairly frequently - teleporting terminators being a common example. This was in the official FAQ).
http://www.net-armageddon.org/sites/def ... ic_FAQ.pdf

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