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Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?

 Post subject: Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:06 am 
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Is an aircraft allowed to land in the 5cm ZOC of formation A while air assaulting formation B? Assuming the owning player would prefer not to combined assault.

I believe the UK convention prevents air assaults into the ZOC of a nearby scout formation (while though other parts of the world play this differently) but I'm unclear if this limitation also applies to regular ZOC or if it's a special case for scouts. I'm looking for what's played in the UK if this varies.


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 Post subject: Re: Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:43 am 
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4.2.5:

Quote:
the aircraft and any units that disembark may enter enemy zones of control as if they were charging


1.12.3

Quote:
Units making a charge move are allowed to enter enemy zones of control in order to move into base contact with an enemy unit from the target formation. Moving into base contact allows the unit to fight with its close combat value rather than its firefight value, as described below. This is the only time a unit may enter an enemy zone of control. See the rules for zones of control (1.7.3). Note that charging units may not enter the zone of control of enemy units from another formation that is not the target of the assault.

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 Post subject: Re: Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:14 am 
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Now I am confused. Last sentence states;

"If a unit finds itself in an enemy zone of control for any reason, then it must either charge the enemy or leave the zone of control when it next takes an action (note that this will require an action that allows it to charge or move)."

so if you land and jump out in a zone of control, you engage that enemy or move out.

How are you allowed to engage another enemy detachment? Not the unit who's ZOC you are in.

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 Post subject: Re: Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:15 am 
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You can move out of a ZoC with your charge move in order to engage another formation. It's not mutually exclusive. You don't have to engage a formation if your in its ZoC so long as you can move out of that ZoC via an advance/double/march/engage or a marshal/hold where you move.

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 Post subject: Re: Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:28 am 
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I was thinking of a situation where in order to CC the target the aircraft could only land and remain in a second formation's ZOC, as there's no clear space to do so otherwise. If I'm understanding the rule Dave quoted above correctly this wouldn't be allowed (unless the attacking player declared them intermingled).

I'm thinking of trying a 3k Titan Legion list with 5 sole Warhounds but others have commented they're very vulnerable to being air assaulted and killed outright even if there are other titans nearby that could have supported them in an assault. I'm wondering if vs SM (or other air assault lists) I could deploy a clump of the 5 Warhounds in a corner by the Blitz and screen them with the 2 battle titans in the list safely initially (they'd suffer under orbital barrage but it's the lesser of two evils). Later then I could put some on overwatch and move others out gradually, while they cover each other.


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 Post subject: Re: Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:27 am 
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You can only land in one formation's ZoC, unless your intermingling. After that, your disembarks could potentially carry you into another formation's ZoC, like can happen in clasic screen from behind scenario.

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 Post subject: Re: Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:47 am 
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Dave wrote:
You can only land in one formation's ZoC, unless your intermingling. After that, your disembarks could potentially carry you into another formation's ZoC, like can happen in clasic screen from behind scenario.


not sure I agree with that, in the 'screen from behind' scenario, there is nothing stopping the air transport landing in both ZoC at once, say if it too wanted to BTB units (maybe units with MW FF attacks)

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 Post subject: Re: Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:25 pm 
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I'm not following you. The quoted rules above addressed landing in two ZoCs at once.

My sidebar about the screen from behind was added for the following situation:

Rough Riders have a formation of Manticores surrounded. A Tactical formation on the ground can't engage those Manticores as it wouldn't be able to get through the Rough Riders' ZoC. However, Assault Marines in a THawk could air assault the Manticores IF the THawk can land so that it is not in the Rough Riders' ZoC. At that point the Assault Marines would disembark, and while moving towards the Manticores could enter the ZoC of the Rough Riders. This is allowed, as the Rough Riders are "screening from behind".

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 Post subject: Re: Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:18 pm 
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I think this one needs diagrams or pics, I'm having trouble visualising it..... I agree you can't land in the ZoC of a separate formation, but when the ZoCs overlap, you enter the 'screening from behind' territory

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 Post subject: Re: Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:50 pm 
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The classic 'screen from behind' scenario described by Dave looks like this, where
R = Rough rider
M = Manticore
T= Terminator / ThunderHawk

R . . M . . T

If the distance R-M is less than 5cm, the two formations can be declared as intermingled, allowing T to enter the ZoC of R first, but moving into contact with M (while moving towards R).

If the distance R-M is greater than 5cm (so they cannot be declared intermingled), T enters the ZoC of M first, and then ignores all other ZoCs including that of R, which extends beyond M.

=========

The contentious part is where the scouts ZoC encompasses part or all of the other unit, and the air-transport lands between the two (thus in both ZoCs while the units are not intermingled), with the intention of assaulting the other unit not the scouts. Using the above symbols, it looks like this

R . . T . M

There has been a long and contentious debate on this which ultimately boiled down to leaving the decision to the local TO, or the 5min discussion.
Typically the U.K. Does not allow air assaults performed like this, others do allow such air assaults.


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 Post subject: Re: Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:08 am 
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I was aware already of the way it is with the scouts and the difference with the UK playing scouts can 'screen from the back' from air assaults like that, while other parts of the world play they can't.

I was more wondering whether a non-scout formation can 'screen from the front' another formation from air assault by leaving no space for the aircraft to attack without landing in both formations ZOC (if they choose to do an intermingled assault that would be fine). I was thinking they could still screen and it sounds like most of you agree though kyussinchains disagrees. I'd just like to get it clear as it effects the viability of the list I'm thinking of running in some future games.


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 Post subject: Re: Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:09 am 
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This came up at a tournament recently. Essentially, you can air assault but all the units have to get into close assault with model you are engaging. In the game we played a unit of termies in a thunderhawk were able to close a assault a blitz brigade which was screened by stormboyz even though when they got into close assault with the brigade they were still in the stormboyz ZOC.

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 Post subject: Re: Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:50 am 
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Here's my take on the OP's question:

Its a universally applied rule that you cannot engage one formation and enter the ZOC of another unless:
* You call intermingling
* You can apply the "scouting from behind rule"

In the OP situation regarding a bunch of titans, neither exception applies and so it would not be possible for an attacker to charge one titan and be in the ZOC of another that he did not call intermingling on.

IMHO "scouting from behind" isn't applicable here as that's only relevant when the defender has positioned scouts so as to make it impossible to get into B2B with another unit without entering the scouts ZOC. In the OP's proposal you simply have one non-scout formation guarding another. It is pefectly allowed for the defender to insist that the attacker stays out of the ZOC of the guarding formation.

The "scouting from behind FAQ rule" was introduced specifically because of the strange situation where you cannot charge a unit directly in front of you because of the ZOC of some scouts behind them. The situation becomes absurd when you also cannot charge the scouts because of the ZOC of the unit in front of you. GW explicitly calls this out as cheese. On the other hand when you have a protective formation blocking i.e. guarding to the front or side of your vulnerable unit that is a legitimate tactic. Your opponent maust attack the guard first if he cannot get around its ZOC or call intermingling if the guard formation is within 5cm of the preferred target.


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 Post subject: Re: Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:58 pm 
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As previous post; at its heart there are two issues, the different nature of air assault, in that the unit is not requiring to move through a unit, but rather for all intents, appears on board. And the issue of ZOC being used to block, which after all is why scout units exist and why the infiltrate rule has purpose.
I disagree with Steve's concept on close combat, I do not think that is relevant. The issue is rather the landing in ZOC of a non assaulted unit.
The issue really is with Scout.
I can see little debate with a situation where a unit with 5cm ZOC is entered into by a squad looking to FF or CC a unit that is nearby (but not intermingled) this is clearly not allowed, otherwise what worth is ZOC? We would have crazy situations where units would fight an assault then sit stump in other units ZOC to further ruin them.
I read, and feel free to disagree, Scout, as being a barrier mainly to ground based assaults. If an air assault lands in the ZOC of its target (5cm) whether it aims at CC or not, the overlapping Scout ZOC is not a barrier. In other words asking as the assaulter is in ZOC of the target unit, then ancillary ZOC are ignored.


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 Post subject: Re: Air assaulting into a second formation's ZOC?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:04 pm 
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Oh and Glyn, I've done the warhounds list, its way too squigy. Your limited activations makes a recyclable air assault a hell of an issue. Terminators with 4 3+ CC and 4 3+ macro, seem to be odds on with killing a warhound before (and preventing) supporting fire. Eldarare equally Scarry.


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