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Tau guided missiles & suppression
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=32270		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Kyrt [ Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  Tau guided missiles & suppression
Tau guided missiles have a range of 90cm, do not always get to fire, but when they do fire they do not require line of sight.

So, assuming the unit with GMs is at the back, how would you play suppression? Mainly it's a question of whether you would apply the 'line of sight' rules as normal, even though they never actually require line of sight and use a different rule mechanic to determine whether the weapon is 'available'.
a) Target is markerlit, in range, in line of sight - OK this is the easy one, clearly counts for suppression
b) Target is markerlit, in range, not in line of sight - analogous to an Indirect Fire situation, except can also happen in occasions where being the unit that is suppressed can be a good thing (e.g. overwatch, AA attacks)
c) Target is in range, in line of sight, but not markerlit (so wouldn't be able to fire) - analogous to a One Shot weapon that has fired perhaps?
d) As c), except firing at a target it wouldn't be able to target anyway (e.g. vs aircraft)
e) Target is in range, but not in line of sight or markerlit - they never need line of sight anyway, so does the 'needs line of sight' rule for suppression still apply?

The main occasion I find this makes a big difference is for AA attacks, because devilfish and hammerheads have GMs so can often make embedded skyrays much harder to suppress if you count those weapons.

Basically I think it comes down to - do you treat them exactly like other situations (e.g. small arms) and so can be suppressed if they are within physical line of sight, or do you replace the 'line of sight' requirement wherever it applies with a 'must be markerlit' requirement.
Author:  yme-loc [ Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau guided missiles & suppression
To count for suppression a model must have a weapon in range and have line of sight (LOS). Guided missiles definitely fulfil these criteria so count for suppression even against non marked targets they could not normally fire at, as long as you have LOS.

Being marked (or using indirect fire) allows a formation to fire guided missiles (or a barrage) at a target formation without LOS as a requirement - it does not give LOS.
Author:  Kyrt [ Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau guided missiles & suppression
So it would therefore not be suppressed if it was firing at a target it did not have line of sight to, i.e. b)? Because markerlights don't give line of sight, they only allow it to fire when it normally wouldn't? And logically also indirect fire weapons cannot be suppressed when firing indirectly? Sounds dodgy :) Don't think it is that simple really. Remember also that the markerlights/GM rule doesn't only allow them to fire when they normally wouldn't, it also prevents them from firing when they normally would.

The fact is indirect fire overrides the line of sight rule somehow, and I have never seen it played that this does not also apply to suppression. It's obvious those units should be suppressed. The difference with tau is that this situation arises in more unusual circumstances because it is not only active during the formation's own specific (sustain) action, and also uniquely, GMs can work in the opposite direction. I can't really see a way to do it so that there is a consistent application of the rules.

Maybe some scenarios help:

6 fire warriors, 3 devilfish and a skyray sustain at some LVs without markerlights. The tanks are at the back, outside of 30, with 4 BMs. Everything has line of sight except the skyray. How many fire warriors can fire?
A) 6 - the tanks might not be able to fire but they don't ever need line of sight so count for suppression whether markerlit or not
B) 3 - the GMs only count as having line of sight if the target is markerlit
C) 5 - the GMs need line of sight to be suppressed, and the skyray doesn't qualify even though they don't need line of sight to fire.

Now imagine it is overwatch instead.

Now imagine the target is markerlit by another formation. Does this change anything?
Author:  Kyrt [ Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau guided missiles & suppression
Happy if people think the markerlights restriction should be ignore but the 'no LoS required' bit should not, just would like to see others' reasoning for it.
Author:  Andrew_NZ [ Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau guided missiles & suppression
Sounds to me like the Guided Missile rule should be clarified to deal with all these problems:

When it counts for Suppression.
When it gives crossfire.
Any others?

If anything (AT/AF/small arms) can take the suppression BMs when firing at aircraft (always got the LOS there) then I'd be fairly generous with the Guided Missile rule.
Author:  yme-loc [ Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau guided missiles & suppression
Andrew_NZ wrote:
Sounds to me like the Guided Missile rule should be clarified to deal with all these problems:

When it counts for Suppression.



The suppression rules are one of the better written areas of the rules and really are quite simple (from a rules as written perspective).

1. Is it in range with any weapon
2. Is it in LOS

If yes to the above then it counts for suppression.

Edit: thought about this and changed my mind. May indeed need some clarification.
Author:  yme-loc [ Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau guided missiles & suppression
Kyrt wrote:
6 fire warriors, 3 devilfish and a skyray sustain at some LVs without markerlights. The tanks are at the back, outside of 30, with 4 BMs. Everything has line of sight except the skyray. How many fire warriors can fire?
A) 6 - the tanks might not be able to fire but they don't ever need line of sight so count for suppression whether markerlit or not
B) 3 - the GMs only count as having line of sight if the target is markerlit
C) 5 - the GMs need line of sight to be suppressed, and the skyray doesn't qualify even though they don't need line of sight to fire.


- C from the rules. Although does cause some odd interactions.
Author:  Kyrt [ Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau guided missiles & suppression
Yeah i think the issue is, C would imply that when shooting at a markerlit target that is out of line of sight that you cannot be suppressed. So needs more explanation.

Also not dissimilar to small arms, except its the markerlights part that is different, not the LoS part. So if you could use small arms only when markerlit...

Another one that occurred to me - can a piranha firefight a markerlit target it cannot see?
Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau guided missiles & suppression
From a pragmatic point of view, I'd go with 'if it could fire it can be suppressed'.
Author:  StevekCole [ Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau guided missiles & suppression
Agree with IJW
Author:  Blip [ Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau guided missiles & suppression
Yup, I'm with IJW.

Though for simplicity, its be even easier to say GM weapons don't count at all.


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Author:  Kyrt [ Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau guided missiles & suppression
IJW Wartrader wrote:
From a pragmatic point of view, I'd go with 'if it could fire it can be suppressed'.

And if it couldn't fire, it can't be suppressed?
Author:  Blip [ Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau guided missiles & suppression
Kyrt wrote:
IJW Wartrader wrote:
From a pragmatic point of view, I'd go with 'if it could fire it can be suppressed'.

And if it couldn't fire, it can't be suppressed?


I think IJW means, if i can't fire then it can't be used to "soak" a blast marker - as usual for a unit which doesn't have range/los.


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Author:  Apocolocyntosis [ Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau guided missiles & suppression
Blip wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
IJW Wartrader wrote:
From a pragmatic point of view, I'd go with 'if it could fire it can be suppressed'.

And if it couldn't fire, it can't be suppressed?


I think IJW means, if i can't fire then it can't be used to "soak" a blast marker - as usual for a unit which doesn't have range/los.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Would you also apply this to slow fire weapons that are out of ammo this turn?
Author:  yme-loc [ Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tau guided missiles & suppression
IJW Wartrader wrote:
From a pragmatic point of view, I'd go with 'if it could fire it can be suppressed'.


It would have to be an addition to the core rules, but would probably work with some additional language in the markerlight rules.
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