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Assult Stalling (in a silly way)
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=31578		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Dan 1314 [ Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Assult Stalling (in a silly way)
Dear all,

For the second time in my Epic career, I came across the issue of an assault going weird.
Firstly, I want to point out for clarity that this had no effect on the game, and my opponent was noble and gregarious in accepting whatever decision continued the game. - He really is a pleasant sole, whom sadly wins too much.
So what happened was that the assaulting unit was not the closest unit, so the assaulted unit used its counter charge to move towards what was the nearest unit. Resulting in no units from the assaulter being within 15cm. We played at the time that this meant that the attack didn’t stall, but simply ended with no casualties and nobody breaking.
I see there has been some chat with regards this in 2009, but no clear solution.
The pertinent part of the rules are 1.12.15
“If all of the attacking units directly engaged in the assault are killed then the assault
has stalled and the defender wins (go straight to 1.12.8).
'Directly engaged' means being within 15cm of a defending
unit after charge and counter-charge moves have been
completed.”
Of the 2009 chat comments, I am convinced the most by Gavin’s wisdom in which he points out the absurdity of the attacker losing units [and one would also assume breaking] when not in the assault.
So anyway, to construct this into a question, 1) does the assault simply stop without the traditional resolution. This isn’t covered in the rules, but seems logical, and 2) would it then be smart (though snide) to use a counter charge in such a situation to put the defending unit just inside range of one of the attackers (i.e so that killing that attacker would meet the remit of stalled attack)?
I apologies in advance for re-opening old discussions, but when your regular opponent is Jon Cole with feral orks, you need every option explored.

Thanks kindly
Author:  Dave [ Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Assult Stalling (in a silly way)
Because there were no attacking units directly engaged I don't think the "if all of the attacking units directly engaged in the assault are killed" clause is applicable. Given that, there would be no support fire and you'd go straight to the result roll off. That follows with the last FAQ of 1.12.5 too.

Leaving one of your stands within 15cm of the attackers (in the hopes of killing those attackers with support) is a move I love to pull. You rarely get the opportunity but it's a classic dick moves that really annoys your friends. Good times!
Author:  dptdexys [ Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Assult Stalling (in a silly way)
1.is covered in the counter charge section 1.12.4 and it Stalls. highlighted relevant part.

Quote:
Counter charges happen after the engaging formation has finished moving and any overwatch shots have been taken, but before the combat is resolved. All the normal charge move rules apply, and defending formations must still be in a legal formation after the counter charge moves have been made (ie, all units must be within 5cm of another unit from their formation).


2. Any opponent should only let tihis happen only once or twice before they realise what will happen and position their attackers better.
Author:  Kyrt [ Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Assult Stalling (in a silly way)
Not sure why charge move rules mean that the result would be a stall (ie automatic loss for the attacker)? The most relevant part about charge moves (ie 1.12.3) I would say is this:
"Once the move is complete, the engaging formation must have at least one unit within 15cms of a unit from the target formation. If this is not the case then the assault does not take place and the action ends." So if all the charge moves apply, including that one, then if after counter. charges nothing is in range, the assault would just end.

In the absence of applying that sentence to counter charges, I would have said going straight to roll off makes sense (since there are no attacks to make and no units to be in support of).

Either way, yes, leaving your units just in range of one unit is totally a valid evil tactic, after all your opponent probably tried to clip you. However it's quite rare, as the other formation needs to be quite close, but far enough away that either none of your units are able to reach them or can still get out of 15 without entering the zoc of the closest unit - because if you enter a zoc you must attempt to base the unit.

Other more common but less useful tricks include not countercharging when your opponent clips you, this works most often with a large formation with bonuses and your opponent is trying to minimise the number of your units that can attack him. Instead you can allow him to kill the only unit in combat, limiting him to +1 for damage on the roll off.
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Assult Stalling (in a silly way)
SNAP Kyrt LoL ;D

Agreed that #2 is another trick similar to 'clipping' that people learn to love / hate.

Dptdexys, am unsure that the reply answers #1. Could you explain further why the assault "stalls".
Are you suggesting that if their counter-charge takes all the target units outside 15cm of all attacking units AND the target units do not contact other enemy units, then 1.12.3 kicks back in?
Quote:
[SNIP]This move is known as the charge move.

Make the move normally, as described in the movement rules given previously. Once the move is complete, the engaging formation must have at least one unit within 15cms of a unit from the target formation. If this is not the case then the assault does not take place and the action ends.


If not then logically, as the defenders have survived the 'assault' and no attackers have been 'directly involved', both sides can call on their respective support before resolving the 'assault', though this seems rather weird . . .
Author:  dptdexys [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Assult Stalling (in a silly way)
It does not take place at all is what I meant by stall.

All normal charge rules apply to counter charges this includes "no units within 15cm" which results in
Quote:
Once the move is complete, the engaging formation must have at least one unit within 15cms of a unit
from the target formation. If this is not the case then the assault does not take place and the action ends.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Assult Stalling (in a silly way)
dptdexys wrote:
It does not take place at all is what I meant by stall.

All normal charge rules apply to counter charges this includes "no units within 15cm" which results in
Quote:
Once the move is complete, the engaging formation must have at least one unit within 15cms of a unit
from the target formation. If this is not the case then the assault does not take place and the action ends.


yup, that's pretty cut and dried to me
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Assult Stalling (in a silly way)
Same here
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Assult Stalling (in a silly way)
Thanks and Agreed.
Onyx and Dave, this sounds like it ought to be added as a FAQ. Possibly something like:-

Q. What happens if chargers attempt to assault a target, but all the defenders countercharge towards a different enemy, causing all the defening units to end up outside 15cm from the original chargers?
A. If the defenders are all outside 15cm from the chargers AND none have contacted other enemy units, then the assault does not take place (per 1.12.3)
Author:  Kyrt [ Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Assult Stalling (in a silly way)
dptdexys wrote:
It does not take place at all is what I meant by stall.

Ah makes sense then, yes seems fine to me. (In the rulebook stall is used to mean a failed assault, ie attacker loses, so best avoid that word in an FAQ if one is written).
Author:  kmino [ Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Assult Stalling (in a silly way)
Hi guys,
I recently discovered about the "counter-charge someone else" rule, I thought I got the hang of it, but now this thread dragged me back in confusion.

So goes the rulebook:

Quote:
Any enemy formations that are contacted by counter charging units are drawn into the assault


What I understand is:

1. An unit from a formation that is being assaulted can use its counter-charge only to approach the closest enemy unit

2. This enemy unit may be from a formation different than the one that started the assault (let's call it the "third party")

3. If the defender gets in base contact with at least one unit of the "third party", the latter is dragged into the assault, then...

4. the assaulting formation and the "third party" are considered as one formation for the rest of the assault; says the book:

Quote:
Treat them and the original attacking formation as a single formation for all rules purposes for the duration of the assault


This latter point suggests me that even if the defender's counter-charges would bring each of its units out of 15 cm from the initial attacker, the automatic stall should not occur, because both players would still have units that are directly involved in the assault (the defending formation and the "third party", that is teporarilt accounted for as the one formation with the initial assaulter).

However, I may have well missed some points in the reasoning (especially the parts I highlighted in red), so... any clarification is welcome!
Author:  Dan 1314 [ Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Assult Stalling (in a silly way)
We wound play that just like a combined assault.
So say a warhound is assulted by a guardian squad, and the Eldar player has foolishly left a falcoln squad within 10cm of the titan (move of over 30 cm, so 10 cm counter charge), the titan can move its 10 and drag the falcolns into the assault. It may even mean that none of the guardians are in range, but would resolve as a combined assault.
Author:  Kyrt [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Assult Stalling (in a silly way)
kmino, this discussion about stalling or ending the assault refers to a situation where the defender countercharges away from the attacking formation, towards a different formation but does not make contact with it. This is why it is a relatively rare situation, as the units have to be positioned in quite a narrow area for all the defenders to counterchange away out of range without any of them contacting the other formation.

As you thought and Dan confirmed, if the defender contacts another formation then it would be fought as a combined assault.
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Assult Stalling (in a silly way)
Agreed Kyrt.
Indeed it is even possible for the defenders to switch opponents in this fashion, by countercharging all the units out of reach (15cm) of the charging units whilst some units end up in contact with a different enemy formation.
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