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Charging into or out of ZoCs

 Post subject: Re: Charging into or out of ZoCs
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:44 pm 
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I mean specifically whether a war engine is allowed to use its barge ability to counter charge when already in base contact, which normal units cannot.

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 Post subject: Re: Charging into or out of ZoCs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:22 am 
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There is one FAQ that should be added to the NetEA FAQ:
Q: Can a war engine barge friendly units with it's Counter Charge?
A: No. Only enemy units can be barged.

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 Post subject: Re: Charging into or out of ZoCs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:18 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
I mean specifically whether a war engine is allowed to use its barge ability to counter charge when already in base contact, which normal units cannot.


Ahh. Can people weigh in on this? How is this played around the world?

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 Post subject: Re: Charging into or out of ZoCs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 5:11 pm 
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I think Neal answered this many years ago. The FAQ permitting WE to barge during a countercharge certainly dates back to his time. By definition a WE can barge enemy units up to its DC level, even if it starts in B-B.

Point is that the WE would otherwise stop moving on encountering the first enemy unit whether this be during a charge or a counter-charge. If the WE is allowed to continue moving once it has come B-B with an enemy, it can also start moving when in B-B.

Note
- When barging, the WE must move towards the nearest unit, moving in a zig-zag between enemy units
- The WE stops on encountering another WE, since it may not move it


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 Post subject: Re: Charging into or out of ZoCs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 5:33 pm 
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There was a recent discussion on this - worth reviewing

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=30402

Personally I agree with Kyrt, Onyx, Kyuss i.e. FAQ should confirm that RAW you cannot countercharge


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 Post subject: Re: Charging into or out of ZoCs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:44 pm 
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Well just to clarify: I think a FAQ can't hurt, but don't have a strong opinion either way on what the answer should be as IMO the RAW do not cover it explicitly.

On the one hand, it's possible to argue "WEs can countercharge because unlike regular units they can barge". However that would mean they could keep countercharging until they contact DC x 2 units, which I don't believe seems right, personally.

On the other hand, I would probably say it makes most "sense" for WEs to be able to countercharge until they are fully engaged (i.e. in BtB with DC x 1 units). But I don't think that is true "by definition". My reasoning would only be an extrapolation from the RAW, i.e. that the reason normal units can't countercharge when in BtB is because they are "fully engaged". If you read it like that, then war engines would be able to counter-charge until either fully engaged or unable to barge (e.g. contact a WE).

Note that barging is optional so technically the WE could stop mid-way through a countercharge and not be compelled to base the full number of units. That's another point of debate so another reason it's not such a slam dunk IMO.

However I don't think it has ever come up for me personally as it probably wouldn't occur to me and usually I wouldn't want to do it anyway. If an opponent did it I may not even have noticed. My default in these types of situation is generally to avoid doing it myself but allow my opponent to do it if they wished.

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 Post subject: Re: Charging into or out of ZoCs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:06 pm 
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Well most WE will only countercharge 5cm so they won't actually hit many enemy units anyway.

Also, since barging means that the WE is already in contact with something, I agree that presumably it can stop at any point though again the distances involved make this a relatively minor issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Charging into or out of ZoCs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:33 am 
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Once a defending unit (War Engine or not) is in base contact with an attacker, it cannot counter-charge (as played here).

The distinction mentioned above about counter-charging and barging friendly units is extremely important (as anyone who has faced Krieg Gorgons will attest to).

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 Post subject: Re: Charging into or out of ZoCs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:53 am 
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Yeah there is a specific rule that says you cannot do it. Nothing in the WE section changes that.


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 Post subject: Re: Charging into or out of ZoCs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:19 pm 
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Onyx wrote:
Once a defending unit (War Engine or not) is in base contact with an attacker, it cannot counter-charge (as played here).


Does this need removing from the FAQ if thats the case,

Quote:
3.3.1 Charge Moves

Q.Can a war engines barge units out of the way with a counter charge?
A. Yes.


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 Post subject: Re: Charging into or out of ZoCs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:52 pm 
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I would leave it in since Neal added that FAQ as the result of much discussion in the distant past.

The Gorgon barging issue was addressed both by prohibiting the barging of friends, and the requirement to countercharge directly towards the nearest enemy unit. So when charging a Krieg formation, make sure you charge a point where there are infantry units between the chargers and the Gorgon. If the Gorgon cannot touch enemy units without displacing friends (who by definition must be in the way), it's impact is greatly reduced.


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 Post subject: Re: Charging into or out of ZoCs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:02 pm 
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Onyx wrote:
Once a defending unit (War Engine or not) is in base contact with an attacker, it cannot counter-charge (as played here).


Could you explain the logic behind this please, it seems to go against the principal of Barging which specifically allows a WE to continue to move even though it is in B-B with one or more enemy units.
Why prohibit Barging enemy units in a countercharge if this is allowed in a charge?


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 Post subject: Re: Charging into or out of ZoCs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:14 pm 
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Barging should be just a method of getting into B2B with more units that would be otherwise possible. For better or worse it also allows all sorts of gamey dragging units about. However there are limitations to that. A fundamental restriction is that you can only countercharge if not already in B2B. If a WE is not in B2B (after an enemy's charge move) it is free to barge/drag multiple enemies for 5 or 10cm. So a countercharging WE can barge. But a WE cannot countercharge if in B2B.


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 Post subject: Re: Charging into or out of ZoCs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:45 pm 
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ffoley wrote:
If a WE is not in B2B (after an enemy's charge move) it is free to barge/drag multiple enemies for 5 or 10cm. So a countercharging WE can barge. But a WE cannot countercharge if in B2B.
These last two sentences seem to contradict each other and could easily confuse.
For example, are you suggesting that the WE countercharge stops as soon as it hits something?


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