Tactical Command :: View topic - EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications

1. Barrage Ranges : ALL (not just the center) of the FIRST template must be in range of the furthest firing unit. This take precedence over the "greatest number of targets rule."

2. Barrage Templates. Second (and 3rd, 4th etc) template can be place beyond max range ? But MUST be placed to catch more stands from the same unit if it can be. ie. if there are other units in same formation you cant choose to flip onto a different formation.

3. CAP placement. Aircraft on CAP are placed on the table edge at the point where they MUST enter on their CAP intercept. Ie. Not lined up on table edge able to enter at any table edge point.

4. Outstanding question (see here : http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29057&hilit=+cap ) does the CAP placement have a facing or can they come on at any angle? - ie must you fly out 30cm before turning ?

5. CAPing CAPs (Oh that old chestnut.) Ok, so we get that flying to intercept a unit of flyers hovering on CAP on the board edge is a no-no (whether on CAP or as a normal intercept). What caught me out is that the whole "reactive" intercept action that a unit on CAP makes is deemed a CAP action - ie. immune from my CAP aircraft. Correct ?

6. Finally. This never came up, but presumably once the CAP intercept ha been made, there is nothing stopping another non-CAP aircraft making an Intercept on the (now finished) CAPing aircraft on the board?

Blip wrote:

1. Barrage Ranges : ALL (not just the center) of the FIRST template must be in range of the furthest firing unit. This take precedence over the "greatest number of targets rule."

no, the template only has to have an edge in range of the first firing unit providing an enemy unit is in range

Blip wrote:

Quote:

second and subsequent templates must only touch the first, they may be placed beyond maximum range of the firing unit and you can choose to flip onto a different formation if you wish, there is no stipulation that the second template has to hit any units from the targeted formation

Q: In Section 1.9.8 it says:
"Note that once the first template has been placed, the attacker may choose where to place the additional templates, as long as they are touching the first template, and no line of fire, placement or range restrictions apply".
Does this mean that the original stipulation that each template must cover as many units in the target formation as possible is not in effect for any additional templates placed by a barrage.

A: The first template that is placed must be placed so as to cover as many units from the target formation as possible, but may only be placed in positions where all units contributing BPs to the attack have a LOF and are in range to at least one unit under the template. Additional templates must be placed touching (not overlapping) the first template, but within this restriction must still be placed to cover as many units as possible from the target formation. There is no range or LOF requirement for the additional templates that are placed

As far as I'm aware, this means that a single visible enemy unit from a mostly-hidden formation would let you fire the first barrage template 'around the corner' to hit the rest of the formation, as long as you clip that visible unit.

No, you cannot place the first template out of range or line of sight or out of range,only the extra templates can be placed out of line of sight but must be placed after the 1st one is placed and touching it.

You have to place the first template in range and in line of fire and covering as many units as possible if there is a choice. Only then do you check for extra templates and their placement, you cannot place the extra templates first.

I know I'm going to sound like a jerk for asking, but could you please provide a rules quote for this? All I can find is a requirement that at least one enemy unit be in LoF and range, not the template, and I've quoted rules text that supports this.

Each weapon contributing to the barrage must be within range and have a line of fire to at least one unit under the template.

In addition, templates must be placed in such a way as to get as many enemy units from the target formation under them as possible within the restrictions for lines of fire and range

Extra Barrage Templates: Large barrages may receive extra Barrage templates. The Barrage table will tell you if a barrage receives any extra Barrage templates. Place any extra templates so that they touch the first template that was placed, and so that no templates overlap. All units under the templates are attacked with the barrage’s to hit values. Note that once the first template has been placed, the attacker may choose where to place the additional templates, as long as they are touching the first template, and no line of fire, placement or range restrictions apply (see below).

Q: Do extra Barrage templates have to be placed to get as many enemy units from the target formation under them as possible?
A: The rules are unclear here, but yes they do.

Q: Is it possible to place extra Barrage templates so that they cover units that no weapon contributing to the barrage has range or a line of fire to?
A: Yes, but only the extra templates.

Author:	Blip [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:53 am ]
Post subject:	EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications
After a couple of queries at the EE tourney on Sat (some of which were played differently by different players at the event ) I just want to clear up a few funnies as I'm going to be running a bunch of demo games over the next month or so and want to make sure I have everything down as much as possible so as not to cause confusion to new players. [Part of the problem of being a little Blip of Epic out in the sticks is we don't get to converse with long term players much, so the poor s&s have to put up with me and my muddled brain!] Please note : I'm asking for Epic UK rules interpretations - not cos they're better - just cos they are where we'll most likely be playing competitively :-) 1. Barrage Ranges : ALL (not just the center) of the FIRST template must be in range of the furthest firing unit. This take precedence over the "greatest number of targets rule." 2. Barrage Templates. Second (and 3rd, 4th etc) template can be place beyond max range ? But MUST be placed to catch more stands from the same unit if it can be. ie. if there are other units in same formation you cant choose to flip onto a different formation. 3. CAP placement. Aircraft on CAP are placed on the table edge at the point where they MUST enter on their CAP intercept. Ie. Not lined up on table edge able to enter at any table edge point. 4. Outstanding question (see here : http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29057&hilit=+cap ) does the CAP placement have a facing or can they come on at any angle? - ie must you fly out 30cm before turning ? 5. CAPing CAPs (Oh that old chestnut.) Ok, so we get that flying to intercept a unit of flyers hovering on CAP on the board edge is a no-no (whether on CAP or as a normal intercept). What caught me out is that the whole "reactive" intercept action that a unit on CAP makes is deemed a CAP action - ie. immune from my CAP aircraft. Correct ? 6. Finally. This never came up, but presumably once the CAP intercept ha been made, there is nothing stopping another non-CAP aircraft making an Intercept on the (now finished) CAPing aircraft on the board? Thanks for indulging my pedantry !

Author:	IJW Wartrader [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications
1. No. Only one unit under the template need be in range. Technically, I believe the entire template itself can be outside range as long as it's affecting that unit that is in range. The centre of the template only has an effect in the rules for War Engines. The FAQ for 1.9.8. uses the wording 'and are in range to at least one unit under the template'. 2. 'Additional templates must be placed touching (not overlapping) the first template, but within this restriction must still be placed to cover as many units as possible from the target formation. There is no range or LOF requirement for the additional templates that are placed.' So yes they can be out of range and yes they must still try to hit as many of the original formation as possible. 3-6. Sorry, we don't use aircraft enough in Exeter for me to know any of that.

Author:	kyussinchains [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications
Blip wrote: 1. Barrage Ranges : ALL (not just the center) of the FIRST template must be in range of the furthest firing unit. This take precedence over the "greatest number of targets rule." no, the template only has to have an edge in range of the first firing unit providing an enemy unit is in range Quote: 2. Barrage Templates. Second (and 3rd, 4th etc) template can be place beyond max range ? But MUST be placed to catch more stands from the same unit if it can be. ie. if there are other units in same formation you cant choose to flip onto a different formation. second and subsequent templates must only touch the first, they may be placed beyond maximum range of the firing unit and you can choose to flip onto a different formation if you wish, there is no stipulation that the second template has to hit any units from the targeted formation Quote: 3. CAP placement. Aircraft on CAP are placed on the table edge at the point where they MUST enter on their CAP intercept. Ie. Not lined up on table edge able to enter at any table edge point. this is correct, you must choose an entry point for the aircraft on your table edge Quote: 4. Outstanding question (see here : http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29057&hilit=+cap ) does the CAP placement have a facing or can they come on at any angle? - ie must you fly out 30cm before turning ? you may enter the table at any angle, although obviously you still need to fly 30cm at said angle before turning Quote: 5. CAPing CAPs (Oh that old chestnut.) Ok, so we get that flying to intercept a unit of flyers hovering on CAP on the board edge is a no-no (whether on CAP or as a normal intercept). What caught me out is that the whole "reactive" intercept action that a unit on CAP makes is deemed a CAP action - ie. immune from my CAP aircraft. Correct ? Yes, you may not CAP a formation entering the table on CAP Quote: 6. Finally. This never came up, but presumably once the CAP intercept ha been made, there is nothing stopping another non-CAP aircraft making an Intercept on the (now finished) CAPing aircraft on the board? no, after the initial CAP action has been carried out, you are now free to intercept them (although they are now able to Jink which usually gives them a boost to their save)

Author:	IJW Wartrader [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications
kyussinchains wrote: Blip wrote: 1. Barrage Ranges : ALL (not just the center) of the FIRST template must be in range of the furthest firing unit. This take precedence over the "greatest number of targets rule." no, the template only has to have an edge in range of the first firing unit providing an enemy unit is in range Are you sure? As far as I'm aware the proviso is that the enemy unit be in range, not the template itself.

Author:	kyussinchains [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications
actually no, the template can be out of the max range, you're right there, RAW you could clip the last model on a stand which was in range of the firing units so the template could be further than the max range

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Author:	IJW Wartrader [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications
That's a relief, for a moment there I thought I'd been playing it wrong all through Saturday's tournament!

Author:	dptdexys [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications
kyussinchains wrote: Blip wrote: Quote: 2. Barrage Templates. Second (and 3rd, 4th etc) template can be place beyond max range ? But MUST be placed to catch more stands from the same unit if it can be. ie. if there are other units in same formation you cant choose to flip onto a different formation. second and subsequent templates must only touch the first, they may be placed beyond maximum range of the firing unit and you can choose to flip onto a different formation if you wish, there is no stipulation that the second template has to hit any units from the targeted formation All subsequent templates that are placed must touch the first template placed *and still cover as many units as possible from the target formation before trying to cover any other formations. Official FAQ covers this. Quote:* Q: In Section 1.9.8 it says: "Note that once the first template has been placed, the attacker may choose where to place the additional templates, as long as they are touching the first template, and no line of fire, placement or range restrictions apply". Does this mean that the original stipulation that each template must cover as many units in the target formation as possible is not in effect for any additional templates placed by a barrage. A: The first template that is placed must be placed so as to cover as many units from the target formation as possible, but may only be placed in positions where all units contributing BPs to the attack have a LOF and are in range to at least one unit under the template. Additional templates must be placed touching (not overlapping) the first template, but within this restriction must still be placed to cover as many units as possible from the target formation. There is no range or LOF requirement for the additional templates that are placed Orbital Barrage templates are different as they are not targeting a specific formation but an area so extra templates can be placed freely (whilst still touching the 1st one placed).

Author:	Blip [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications
Thanks for the clarifications chaps ! I think almost everything is clear (as mud) now ! :-) Sorry to pick on Ian here (not really your IC, Disrupt mister you ! ) Since last EE, I'd been playing the barrage rules as we'd played them in our game - ie. sight to one unit in a formation allows you to (in fact forces you to) shoot at targets out of sight if this provides more targets under the template (as my wave serpents sulking behind the woods found to their detriment) even if this is out of range. However, if i'm understanding the comments above, when firing DIRECT barrage you require both range and LOS to each target effected by the template in order to target them. Or is LOS not important ? Sometimes i just wish the rule was you could just stick the template anywhere you blooming like (in range)! Likewise, removing CAP would make life so much easier ! Cheers again !

Author:	IJW Wartrader [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications
'Each weapon contributing to the barrage must be within range and have a line of fire to at least one unit under the template.' As far as I'm aware, this means that a single visible enemy unit from a mostly-hidden formation would let you fire the first barrage template 'around the corner' to hit the rest of the formation, as long as you clip that visible unit. However the units outside LoF would get to claim cover. Unfortunately, almost all of the direct-fire barrages in the UK Death Guard list have Ignore Cover, so the Plaguehounds and Plaguereapers just need to see a single unit to cause utter havoc.

Author:	dptdexys [ Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications
IJW Wartrader wrote: As far as I'm aware, this means that a single visible enemy unit from a mostly-hidden formation would let you fire the first barrage template 'around the corner' to hit the rest of the formation, as long as you clip that visible unit. No, you cannot place the first template out of range or line of sight or out of range,only the extra templates can be placed out of line of sight but must be placed after the 1st one is placed and touching it. You have to place the first template in range and in line of fire and covering as many units as possible if there is a choice. Only then do you check for extra templates and their placement, you cannot place the extra templates first.

Author:	Blip [ Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications
Thanks guys. Ian, I demand a rematch ! ;-)

Author:	IJW Wartrader [ Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications
dptdexys wrote: No, you cannot place the first template out of range or line of sight or out of range,only the extra templates can be placed out of line of sight but must be placed after the 1st one is placed and touching it. You have to place the first template in range and in line of fire and covering as many units as possible if there is a choice. Only then do you check for extra templates and their placement, you cannot place the extra templates first. I know I'm going to sound like a jerk for asking, but could you please provide a rules quote for this? All I can find is a requirement that at least one enemy unit be in LoF and range, not the template, and I've quoted rules text that supports this.

Author:	IJW Wartrader [ Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications
Diagram time. Purple 'F' is the firer. The large pink/orange circle is the range of the barrage weapon. A & B are in LoF. C-F out out of LoF. 1. This is definitely allowed: 2. Unit A is in range and LoF. As far as I'm aware this placement of the template is legal because A is in range and LoF. Can B be hit? 3. A can definitely be hit. As per the restriction on placing the template on as many units in the formation I believe that I have to place the template here rather than the positions in diagram 1 or 2. Can I place the template like this? If I can't, where is this stated in the rules? If I can: Can B be hit? Can C be hit (out of LoF, definitely in range)? Can D & E be hit? 4. The template has been placed so that it affects the unit that was in LoF and range, and has been placed to affect as many units in the formation as possible. Can I place the template like this? If I can't, where is this stated in the rules? Etc.

Author:	mordoten [ Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications
this is really interesting, i've heard several different rulings on this.

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Author:	Dave [ Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EPIC-UK Rules Clarifications
IJW Wartrader wrote: I know I'm going to sound like a jerk for asking, but could you please provide a rules quote for this? All I can find is a requirement that at least one enemy unit be in LoF and range, not the template, and I've quoted rules text that supports this. Both NetEA and EpicUK use the same rules, so interpretations would be the same unless we're talking about something that's gone over in the 5-minute warm-up. With regards to the first template, second sentence of the second paragraph of 1.9.8: Quote: Each weapon contributing to the barrage must be within range and have a line of fire to at least one unit under the template. And the second to last sentence in the last paragraph: Quote: In addition, templates must be placed in such a way as to get as many enemy units from the target formation under them as possible within the restrictions for lines of fire and range So, 3 or 4 would be how you would have to place the original template (your choice, being the attacker). Note that the template has to be over an infantry MODEL on the stand to count as being over that unit though. With regards to the extras: Quote: Extra Barrage Templates: Large barrages may receive extra Barrage templates. The Barrage table will tell you if a barrage receives any extra Barrage templates. Place any extra templates so that they touch the first template that was placed, and so that no templates overlap. All units under the templates are attacked with the barrage’s to hit values. Note that once the first template has been placed, the attacker may choose where to place the additional templates, as long as they are touching the first template, and no line of fire, placement or range restrictions apply (see below). The "(see below)" refers to the third and fourth FAQ: Quote: Q: Do extra Barrage templates have to be placed to get as many enemy units from the target formation under them as possible? A: The rules are unclear here, but yes they do. Q: Is it possible to place extra Barrage templates so that they cover units that no weapon contributing to the barrage has range or a line of fire to? A: Yes, but only the extra templates.