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Suggestions for siege game rules?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29542		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Suggestions for siege game rules?
I'd like to run a multi-player (and possibly multi-table) siege game later in the year and am struggling a bit on the rules side.

So far I've come across:
Chroma's PDF for large fortifications,
Chroma's Cityfight scenario,
The WIP Imperial Fists army list,
DKoK lists.

Has anyone pulled together a single file of rules for siege games and fortifications? Maybe also rules for minefields with some more bite?
Author:  Alf O'Mega [ Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Suggestions for siege game rules?
There's also this:

http://www.net-armageddon.org/sites/def ... /siege.pdf

It has a few scenarios in it that might give you a few ideas?
Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Suggestions for siege game rules?
Ta. I'd downloaded that one as well but only skimmed the scenarios as none of them included 'additional' rules for fortifications etc.
Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Suggestions for siege game rules?
After some more digesting and another look at WD144, I'm struck again by how 'wimpy' the default minefields and razorwire are in EA.

Here's what I'm thinking of trying as scenario-specific house rules (not for normal games!), based on sections of terrain 10-15cm long and 5cm deep:

Very Dangerous Terrain
Roll when the unit enters or starts moving within the terrain.
The unit is hit on a 4+. Any ability that lets a unit reroll Dangerous Terrain allows a reroll, including 5cm cautious movement.
Normal armour saves can be made against these hits but Power Fields, Void Shields and Holofields are ignored.
Any damage does not inflict blast markers.
Notes - this is much more likely to have an effect than normal Dangerous Terrain, but heavily armed troops are going to be better off than light troops.

Superior Razorwire
Infantry and Vehicles, 5cm cautious movement, no effect.
Infantry and Vehicles, faster than 5cm movement, Very Dangerous Terrain.
Skimmers and War Engines can ignore Superior Razorwire.
War Engines and Vindicators (plus other scenario-specific vehicles to be chosen?) can choose to clear a section as part of a 5cm move but must test for Very Dangerous Terrain. If the unit dies to the test the section isn't cleared.
Notes - so largely a way of slowing down/disrupting troops - a March order would let you get through unharmed with 2x5cm moves and still get a full speed move but of course you wouldn't get to fire etc. Big stuff and specially-equipped troops can try and clear a path but risk getting hopelessly snarled up in the wire.

Superior Minefield
Very Dangerous Terrain to Infantry, Vehicles and War Engines, including skimmers.
War Engines and Vindicators (plus other scenario-specific vehicles to be chosen?) can choose to clear a section as part of a 5cm move but will be hit on 3+ instead of 4+. If the unit dies to the test the section isn't cleared.
Notes - as per WD144, the mines can jump high enough to affect skimmers etc.

Barrage Clearance
Any section of Superior Razorwire or Superior Minefield under a barrage template is treated as an infantry unit with 4+ armour, any damage will remove the section.
Sections can be chosen as the target of the barrage but only if no formations would be hit.
Notes - this lets you clear sections with barrages but doesn't let you 'cheat' ranges by shooting a section in range and clipping an enemy formation that would normally have been out of range etc.


Any feedback gratefully received.
Author:  Gwydion [ Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Suggestions for siege game rules?
Hi!

In my opinion the most difficult fortification to play with are the walls and gates. It should be possible to assault them with some kind of "delay" for the assaulting formation (maybe given First Attack to the defenders?). Also, once the walls are cleared they should cause an additional delay (climb them...), maybe the formations assaulting should need a complete turn to go up?

They should also be destroyable (only with MW or TK I would say). If they are destroyed they should cause some damage to the formation on it (kill unit on 5+?) and count as ruins from there on.

Just some ideas. But, let us know how you progress, it will be very useful!!
Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Suggestions for siege game rules?
I'll be starting with viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18440&p=380641 for fortifications but I agree with you that they should only be damageable by MW/TK hits.

For assaults I think it depends on how big the fortifications are. If they're a few cm high then you could have attackers that reach base contact with the wall count as being in base contact with the defenders but give the defenders the choice of using FF or getting First Strike on their CC rolls. If the walls are as big as moredakka's ones (download/file.php?id=13514&mode=view) then you shouldn't be able to reach base contact without Jump Packs, Skimmer or disembarking from a big War Engine such as a Plague Tower.
Author:  Gwydion [ Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Suggestions for siege game rules?
Seems like a good starting point!! (I have not read them before, sorry)

Thinking about the walls...being affected only by MW/TK seems ok in terms of fluff. In terms of gaming not sure yet...maybe they become too powerful? Maybe is much simpler like Chroma did (WE) and avoids "special" rules. However, the part of killing all the units on them could be excesive.

About the difference between high and very high walls it is also a good idea. The problem could be for certain armies with limited options to assault them. Maybe there should be "standard" WE to assault the walls so any army could chose them? Some kind of modern "siege tower" (if this is the case I would limit the number since I kind of like the image of hordes of infantry assaulting the walls...:-D ).

Something to consider also...air transports, teleports, skimmer transports would become extremely profitable in such a game. Maybe there should be a limitation about them. We can imagine that there are AA and anti-teleport systems on the walls so they can not pass them until turn X or they have a risk of suffer hits or similar.

Thanks!!
Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Suggestions for siege game rules?
It depends a bit on who ends up taking part in the game and what models they have, but I'm hoping to be on the attacking side - in which case my Death Guard will have several Plague Towers for that exact purpose. :)
Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Suggestions for siege game rules?
Threadomancy!

I've been working on simplifying some of these rules and will put together a PDF at some point. The overall idea is that each item is simple enough to put the complete rules and profile on a small card.



Mega Minefields

Infantry: Very Dangerous*
Vehicles: Very Dangerous*
War Engines: Very Dangerous*

Applies to Skimmers and Jump Troops.



Super Razorwire

Is Open terrain during an Advance, Marshall or Engage order. Is Impassible terrain during all other movement. Can be ignored by Skimmers, Jump Troops and War Engines.

Notes - the idea is to make razorwire something that slows units down but doesn't damage them.



Pillboxes

Image

Small pillboxes fight as part of any formation that they're in coherency with, but can only be part of one formation at a time. If all friendly formations move away, enemy formations can use them. They will be destroyed if the formation they are part of loses an assault.

Type: AV
Speed: Immobile
Armour: 4+ Reinforced
CC: 6+
FF: 5+
Miscellaneous guns: 45cm AP5+/AT5+

Notes - as simple as possible, hence the single gun type. There may be quite a lot of these on the table so it helps if they're all the same.



Very Dangerous Terrain

As Dangerous Terrain but units are hit on a 1-3 instead of a 1. Cautious Movement and the Walker ability still allow re-rolls. Armour saves can be taken against the hits but Void Shields, Power Fields and Holo-fields do not count.

Notes - Dangerous Terrain is mostly just an irritation rather than a deterrent, this makes it much nastier to low armour troops but unlikely to do much damage to heavy stuff.



Clearing Razorwire and Minefields

War Engines and Vindicators (and other vehicles as per scenario rules) can try to clear one 'section' of Razorwire or Minefield (10-15cm length) at the cost of a move. Roll for Very Dangerous Terrain but make a roll for each starting DC of the War Engine. Any roll of 4+ clears the section, every roll of 1-3 is a hit as per VDT. No re-rolls are allowed for Cautious Movement or Walker.

Any section under one or more barrage templates is treated as a single Infantry unit with 5+ armour. Any failed save clears the section.

Notes - any siege game should have ways of clearing the dangerous sections, but it's going to be risky for the units involved! :)
Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Suggestions for siege game rules?
Now the biggie...

FORTIFICATIONS

  • Each section counts as an immobile War Engine with DC6 that completely ignores anything but damage.
  • Sections can only be damaged by MW or TK weapons.
  • Each section has a Transport Capacity, War Engines (assuming it's a big enough wall) take up their starting DC in spaces.
  • Armour: 4+ Reinforced, Thick Rear Armour.
  • Any attacks on formations on the section can choose to target the section with any MW or TK hits.
  • Crits: 1, 1 BM to any formation on or touching the section; 2-5 lose an additional DC; 6 - section destroyed.
  • Once destroyed, all units on or touching the section (including neighbouring sections) take a MW4+ hit.
  • Destroyed sections count as Ruins.
  • Wall and Tower sections are Impassible to non-Skimmer War Engines or Vehicles.

FORMATIONS AND FORTIFICATIONS

  • Units in a Fortification get a 3+ Cover Save and Reinforced Armour. Weapons with Ignore Cover will ignore both of these benefits.
  • When engaging troops on a fortification, any unit that reaches base contact with the section can attack with it's CC value against troops in the fortification but will get 'last strike' if it does so, exactly the opposite of First Strike. Skimmers and Jump Pack troops can CC normally if they reach base contact with the section.
  • If any assaulters reach base contact with the section, any defending units can freely choose between CC and FF.
  • When resolving the assault, double the numbers of any remaining defenders.
  • Moving on or off the Fortification costs one move unless you are a skimmer or have Jump Packs. You cannot move onto a defended Fortification.

WALL SECTIONS

  • Each wall section should be 10-15cm long.
  • Transport Capacity: 6

TOWER SECTIONS

  • Transport Capacity: 4
  • Armour: 3+ Reinforced, Thick Rear Armour.

GATES

  • DC4 instead of DC6.
  • Armour: 3+ Reinforced, Thick Rear Armour.
  • CAN be harmed by AT weapons as well as MW and TK.
  • If the surrounding Wall or Tower section is destroyed, the Gate will be destroyed as well.
  • Any formation with a unit in base contact with the Gate interior can spend a move to open or close the Gate.
  • Open Gates are Open terrain, closed Gates are Impassible, destroyed Gates are Ruins.
  • Crits: 1, Gate is jammed in current position for the rest of the game; 2-5 lose an additional DC; 6 - destroyed.
Author:  moredakka [ Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Suggestions for siege game rules?
Ian mate are you still looking to use my MDF city walls for this project?

If so I should have about a four foot linear section you can use with one gateway finished to base coat level. In fact you can see what i've been working on in the background of several images i've posted recently.

Cheers
Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Suggestions for siege game rules?
I am, and I'd been admiring what I could see in the background. :)
Author:  moredakka [ Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Suggestions for siege game rules?
I'm waiting on a few more decorative pieces before i can finish the tower sections and I have additional details that need adding to the wall tops before i get those sprayed up.

Should be ready for december no problem provided those other pieces turn up soon.
Author:  Blip [ Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Suggestions for siege game rules?
Sounds great !

My only suggestion - I wonder if the wall sections should have Thick Rear Armour ? As much as I think getting troops inside the walls to gain bonuses to destroying the walls faster would be an interesting tactical option...?
Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Suggestions for siege game rules?
It didn't seem appropriate for a big chunk of ferrocrete to suffer from what's effectively a morale effect. :(
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