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Rule questions - WE's in assaults
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Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Rule questions - WE's in assaults
1) Does the 'flying powerfist' apply to WE as well? So hits in close combat travel over to FF targets, or do you still explicitly target?

2) If 2 WE are next to each other and one is assaulted in such a way that the WE it is assaulting blocks the line of sight to the other, if the WE loses does the other WE get a blast marker (as it wasn't in position to support the assault as it couldn't see)?

3) Barging...
a) A WE that is assaulted can barge towards the nearest enemy not already in base to base contact? This is regardless of wether or not it can reach it? So if it was 15, 20, 30cm etc away you would still if moving head towards that enemy? Does it matter if you have no LOS to the unit? (Say it is behind a building 20cm away.)
B) Units in base to base contact are dragged/pushed with the titan the whole way? So if a Warhound goes 10cm it would drag/push units already in B2B 10cm?
Author:  Dave [ Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rule questions - WE's in assaults
1) WEs are the exception to the rule, its CC attacks can only be allocated to enemies in base contact and FF to those it has a LoF to that are within 15cm but not base contact.

2) No BM.

3) It follows all the rules for charging/entering ZoC, you're not obligated to charge something when you're not in its ZoC. Once you'r in something's ZoC you're obligated to move towards it. LoS doesn't come into it.

3B) It would, but once 6 units were in base contact with the Warhound it couldn't move any further.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rule questions - WE's in assaults
Should have added to 3. b) whiile benny hill music plays.

Sure about 2? It can still see the outcome?
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rule questions - WE's in assaults
Oh and an addendum - if they are dragged out of cover by a WE are they assumed to still be in cover when it comes to saves? The intent doesn't seem to be to do that, just let the WE sweep all before it.
Author:  dptdexys [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rule questions - WE's in assaults
The_Real_Chris wrote:
Should have added to 3. b) whiile benny hill music plays.

Sure about 2? It can still see the outcome?


For any supporting formation to get a BM it has to have been in a position to have lent support not just seen the outcome. As stated in the original post the ability to lend support was stopped by the LOS being blocked.
Author:  Onyx [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rule questions - WE's in assaults
Agreed.
Epic Armageddon Rules wrote:
Calling on support allows units from other formations to attack with their firefight value if they are within 15cm and have a line of fire to an enemy unit directly involved in the assault.
Author:  Moscovian [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rule questions - WE's in assaults
The_Real_Chris wrote:
Oh and an addendum - if they are dragged out of cover by a WE are they assumed to still be in cover when it comes to saves? The intent doesn't seem to be to do that, just let the WE sweep all before it.


I think this got lost in the shuffle. I don't have an answer but I would like to know as well.
Author:  dptdexys [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rule questions - WE's in assaults
Moscovian wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
Oh and an addendum - if they are dragged out of cover by a WE are they assumed to still be in cover when it comes to saves? The intent doesn't seem to be to do that, just let the WE sweep all before it.


I think this got lost in the shuffle. I don't have an answer but I would like to know as well.


If units are dragged out of cover then they would lose the cover save, but it will rarely happen although it is possible. You cannot charge into base contact and drag out an enemy unit or just charge straight through a formation at will, you still have to follow the entering ZoC rule.

FAQ for WE's and assaults
Quote:
Q:
Can I barge a unit and run away so that only one or a few of the target
formation units can attack? Can I barge a unit out of formation?
A:
Technically, yes. However, barging only allows the WE to move enemy units.
The other restrictions on movement remain in effect. A charging WE must
still move to base contact with a unit if it enters its Zone of Control, which
in most cases means it will be forced to barge deeper into the target
formation. Likewise, a countercharging WE must still countercharge towards
the closest unengaged enemy unit and cannot run away.

And just in case it comes up at a tournament,
Quote:
Q:
Can a War Engine barge an enemy formation and drag units out of
coherency? If so, does the formation suffer automatic casualties for being
out of formation, as in 1.7.4?
A:
In most cases this is not possible because the WE has to follow the charge
rules. That means it must move towards any enemy whose Zone of Control
it enters. Generally, this forces the WE deeper into the target formation and
would not allow it to grab a unit and drag it off.
In the rare case where it is possible for a War Engine to isolate a unit or
units, the target formation is not subject to formation coherency under 1.7.4
until the formation moves (countercharges). It may simply choose not to
countercharge if it would result in being out of formation. So barging
cannot, by itself, cause casualties due to loss of formation (1.7.4).
In any case, dragging apart an enemy formation is something that was never
intended under the rules. Attempting it is questionable from a sportsmanship
point of view.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rule questions - WE's in assaults
I really hate the fact that they added that.... stop making it technically possible but against the spirit or intent of the rules!! if they intended a rule to not be abused in that way, implicitly state that and stop relying on sportsmanship, there are a massive number of permutations of how the rules can be effected, and there are probably some that, through no fault of the players, mean this very effect happens, then the rulebook is wooly and vague about the outcome

oooh it really makes me mad!! :{[]
Author:  Moscovian [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rule questions - WE's in assaults
Funny enough, when we developed the Kashnarak War Engine for the Dark Eldar, it was our specific intent to have that thing ripping apart formations, dragging the units all over the place. And that list is NetEA approved! I thought it would be fun to point out that little paradox.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rule questions - WE's in assaults
I can only see it happening with scouts? Hard to see a situation where that isn't the case.

But for cover - so you charge through a wood with your warhound and just keep going dragging the defenders into the open? Interesting.
Author:  Ginger [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rule questions - WE's in assaults
Personally I think that WE should ignore ZOC when charging anything other than another WE. The idea that a vehicle weighing 10's of tons and travelling at speed can turn on a dime / sixpence to hit "the nearest target" is a little ludicrous, but them's the rules. :P

As they stand the rules all but prevent the abuse mentioned, even if they are a bit 'clunky'. ;)
Author:  MephistonAG [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rule questions - WE's in assaults
Ginger wrote:
Personally I think that WE should ignore ZOC when charging anything other than another WE. The idea that a vehicle weighing 10's of tons and travelling at speed can turn on a dime / sixpence to hit "the nearest target" is a little ludicrous, but them's the rules. :P

As they stand the rules all but prevent the abuse mentioned, even if they are a bit 'clunky'. ;)


It's that wonderful sliding ground scale again. None of the models really occupy the correct amount of table space so you have to draw the line somewhere.

And the small peeps could run out of the way of that mobile juggernaut surely?
Author:  Kyrt [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rule questions - WE's in assaults
There are several occasions where it -could- be used, scouts, or where all the units have been contacted. But actually, if two enemy units are 5cm apart and you go base to base with one of them, technically you haven't entered ZoC so could reverse back out again... But if someone did that in my game I'd probably spend the rest of it being a pernickety arsehole with everything they did :)
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rule questions - WE's in assaults
You could if assaulting, but not counter-charging. But yes I think that is why we have the note about the spirit of the rules.

I am quite interested in the idea if say a bunch of terminators attack a warhound that likes to hide in the edge of a wood, countercharging 10cm out towards the enemy, so when the victorious termies consolidate they are in the open...
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